The Hidden World of Licensed Product Development

Think you can launch licensed products in 2 months? Think again.

Join product development expert Jenna as she reveals why licensed products take 9-18 months from concept to shelf. With nearly two decades of experience from Disney to Cartoon Network, Jenna breaks down the three-stage approval process that every licensee must navigate.

In this episode, discover:
- The three approval stages that make or break products
- Why mixing Ben 10 with Shrek's Donkey was a disaster
- The 10-working-day reset that kills timelines
- How Chinese New Year can derail your launch
- The Wicked URL mistake that went viral
- Why 1000+ submissions create approval bottlenecks
- The real cost of providing 120 product samples

From her first Disney pin meltdown to managing Fort Knox of samples at Cartoon Network, Jenna shares the victories and disasters that shaped her career.

🎯 Planning templates discussed
📦 Sample requirements explained
💡 First-timer mistakes to avoid

🎙 Born to License – Hosted by David Born

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Transcript

Over a thousand submissions in my inbox at any one time. I was very fortunate enough to start out at Disney and I just fell in love with it and I never wanted to go back into fashion again. 

 What are the kind of do's and don'ts and rules, the kind of industry standard that are consistent across. 

 Don't flip the character, don't change their skin tone. The process of making these products would. Depending on the product, it could be nine months, 18 months for the toys, and it was Podcast for Shrek and Ben 10 was riding Podcast as if he was a horse. 

 I mean, in what world would Ben 10 be riding donkey from Shrek? 

 Prototypes can be very expensive for a licensee. 

 Do you have any tips or any advice you'd give somebody who is interested in pursuing a career in licensing, particularly in the product development area? 

 Behind every licensed product you see on shelves lies months of meticulous product development. From concept submissions to final production samples, product development professionals manage thousands of approvals while maintaining authenticity. Jenna Chalkley, Bornlicensing to License's head of product development, reveals the complex journey from licensing deal to retail shelf and why timing is everything. There is so much valuable detail in this chat and I hope you find it useful. Before we dive into today's show, I wanted to share something really exciting with you. For the first time ever, I'm opening my vault of nearly 20 years of licensing experience through my online course, Learn to License. Whether you're just starting out or looking to level up your licensing game, this is everything I wish I'd known when I began my journey. From deal structures to finding the right license, knowing if you're ready and how. 

 To pitch like a pro. 

 It's all there, the fundamentals that separate successful licensors from everyone else. Visit learntolicense.com and let's get you from curious to confident. Now let's jump into today's episode. 

 All right, well, Jenna, I often refer to you as the Product Development Queen. Help those listening understand why that might be. How have you become royalty in this space? 

 I wouldn't go that far, but yeah, I've worked in the industry now for, I always say 20 years. I think it might be more 18 years. And I actually wanted to get into fashion born in, weirdly. And then I ended up falling into toy buying. I was very fortunate enough to start out at Disney, so I got the best experience, obviously, because it's Disney and I just fell in love with it and I never wanted to go back into Fash again. So that was sort of like licensing For. Well, it was for the store, so it was a little bit different. But then that kind of started off my journey into the world of entertainment. And then I've worked for Cartoon Network doing the brand assurance on there. 

 I've also worked on the licensee side working for a company where we did sort of collect functioning collectible figurines across various different brands. And that's when I kind of got to understand every company is different. So you had to adhere to all of the different rules and regulations of their brands. And then I worked for another agency, so helping our licensees work with licensors, so kind of bridging the two. And now I work for the lovely David. So I've kind of got a bit of a mixed bag throughout all the years. And I think once you fall into licensing, it's rare you get out because you kind of end up with a passion for it like I have. 

 So. Yeah, tell me. There's a moment that you told me you were really proud of, and it really came. You really realized how powerful the. The role of product development is when you're working at Disney and you first saw a product you worked on in store. Tell me, tell me again that story because I'd love those listening to hear that. 

 I didn't really. I don't think growing up, you really understand. You don't. You're a child. The full impact of what goes in. Into creating a product. You just go to the Disney Store. I used to go every Saturday with my mom, go look at all the dolls, try and jump in the plushie corner that they used to have. That's cuddly toys for people who don't know what plushies are. And yeah, I used to love it there. And. And little did I know that, you know, 15, 20 years later I would be working on those products and see it in store. And I remember I was a buyer's assistant, so we did lots of admin. That was basically our role. And then I was given the opportunity to work on my own range, which was for keychains. 

 And then I moved to stationery and I did like some. I did a lenticular card for Princess and the Frog. That one I really got to make. I'd never even heard of lenticular before then. So you learn a lot on job. And then the process of making these products would. Depending on the product, it could be nine months, 18 months for the toys. And seeing it from its initial sketch designs all the way through to then seeing it in the store, which in the offices at Disney was downstairs. I remember going downstairs. They're like, oh, they've come in the merch. Come in. Right, cool. Went down on my lunch break, and I saw this. This tiny little pin that I'd wrapped, and I was just saw it and I was like, oh, my God, I did that. I didn't smile. Had a meltdown. 

 I just. And I felt like. I think I started telling people on the Shill store, and they just were, like, looking, and they're like, you made this? I was like, yes, I did. Obviously, it wasn't just me. There was a massive team involved. But to know I'd been working on that for, like, so many months, to see it in the store, I just. That's when I just completely fell in love with, you know, product development, to be honest. Even if it's just an internal satisfaction and no one else knows, you know, I did that. All right. 

 Did you still get that. Do you still get that feeling today if. If there's a product that you've worked on and you go into store and you're like, oh, my gosh, there it is. Or has that novelty worn off a bit? 

 No, it drives my friends mad. Like, if we go out and they're trying to born toys or whatever for their kids, if I ever see something I've worked on, I'm like, guys. And then I'll go over and show them, or I start to give them the rundowns of what this product got, like, went through to get to this point, or even when they born stuff for their kids, I'm always like, be careful with that. That took so and so I'm a bit of a busybody when it comes to products, so. But my friends love it because they always come to me for advice. And, yeah, I'm not. I'm the only one without kids, so. 

 Good. 

 I do find people outside of licensing always fascinated. You know, you point at something on shelf and you say, you have no idea what it took to get this product, you know, from conception to this shelf that. That we're looking at right now. And we'll certainly cover more of that off today because I do want to. To help our listeners understand what actually goes into the product development journey. But one of the things I. I wanted to talk about was a conversation that we had early last year, and this was when were talking about whether or not you'd like to join the team at Bornlicensing to License. And I shared with you that I felt that people in our industry, in product development weren't given enough Credit for the contribution that they've made to the world of licensing. Why do you think that is? 

 Why do you think that you and your product development colleagues may not be celebrated enough in the industry? 

 Oh, that's a nice question, David. I think it's more of a, I think it's more of a sales driven industry or it definitely has been previously. I think, I do think it's changing slightly now. People are starting to be a lot more creative. You know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, it would be a brand and a character slapped onto a product. It wouldn't, there wouldn't be a lot of thought into it, not like how it is, you know, in the market currently. So people are being a lot more creative now. Therefore you're going to have to get creative minds and great designers and sculpt designers and people who know what they're doing. So now we are being celebrated. You've got to have a keen eye for detail. 

 So these types of things are required now, but years ago they weren't and it was all about the money. Right. So, you know, product, you know, people who work on the creative side aren't necessarily pulling in the numbers and that I think that's why potentially weren't celebrated. But I think times are changing. 

 Good. 

 Well, they certainly should be celebrated. So let's take a big step back and talk about product development and the journey step by step. Because I think that those listening will really want to understand, particularly those that are very new to licensing. You know, a lot of the companies that come to us looking for help with licensing, one of the questions we ask them is, when would you like to get your product to market? And it is usually the case, they say in two months time or three months time. And they say, because, you know, we're really quick to manufacture, we manufacture locally and we can get to market really quickly. And it's an educational process to help them understand that just because you can move fast doesn't mean that this is going to be a fast process. 

 So let's go back to the beginning of a product development process. Pretend you're speaking with someone that's new to licensing, they've just signed their license agreement. What's the first step that they need to take? 

 So the first step, I mean, it does vary across different categories, of course, but you know, on an overall process there will be the initial designs, so initial ideas. And this is where some people would come with trend boards, their existing product, what they sell into the market. And that's what we would take. These usually happens while the contracts sort of being negotiated so they know what they're getting. And then when it comes to your product approvals there is three stages primarily and that's concept, pre production and contractual stage. So the concepts is where we would request designs of the product and as much information as possible. So that could be your full turned designs. 

 If it's a 3D product, if it's a soft lines collection like T shirts, we would want to know what the range consists of and it would also go down to, you know, as far as what assets were they using from the style guide and that to be numbered. 

 So they will, by the concept stage they've already got access to assets. Right. Can you, can you talk a little bit about when a contract is signed, what assets they're actually going to be getting. 

 So once a contract signed we, you know, for Bornlicensing to License we will set up the initial creative kickoff and then what we do is we'll speak with the licensors born and our clients and the licensor will take us through all of the assets they have. And usually this is in the form of an asset management site such as Mediabox or their own internal systems and it'll have style guides on there. So these style guides consist of all of their, you know, character poses, what pantones to adhere to, the do's and don'ts. They have everything in their fonts, how they work across each category. Because as I said it can be different legal lines, things that I think people who are new to license probably wouldn't necessarily think of that you would need. You know, URL are you are airlines. 

 That's something that always, people always like oh, we're adding a website onto our packaging and packaging style guides. It, it's quite a minefield I think for a new person coming into the industry. But once you get that, you know, underway and you learn on the job, I'd say so then you get the style guides, you get access to assets, they take you through that and then we will help our clients work on what is best in case product. Then that is usually probably, I'd say the, the part that takes the longest because I think to your point, we have a lot of people who are like we can get this out in three months. And actually that process takes a little bit longer because there are rules, there are a lot of things that the licensors, you know, won't want their characters doing. 

 You know, everything has to be on brand. 

 So what are Some of those. What are some of those rules? And some of those, like, do's and don'ts that are kind of almost. Because I know every licensor is different. But what are the kind of do's and don'ts and rules, the kind of industry standard that are consistent across licensors, would you say? 

 I think the obvious ones are, like, and this isn't for everyone, but, like, don't flip the character. And, you know, that's because some characters have, you know, like, hello Kitty wears her bow on a certain side, so you can't flip it. And a lot of these characters have those same sets of rules. Don't change their skin tone. Again, some of them are more creative, so they allow you to do that, you know. But there are some characters that they will absolutely not let you do that. 

 Like SpongeBob. If somebody says, oh, we want to do a range of spongebob pajamas, and we think it would look better if spongebob was blue, that's. That's a no. 

 Yeah, that's a no. I think in other. Sometimes there are more creative ways they can do it if it's not an artistic impression. But again, that would be for something like a stylized artwork. It really does vary on who. On what we're bringing to the table, what product they create, what type of, you know, the. The company's brand is themselves. Other things. Legal lines. Legal lines must always be on a product. Which sometimes I. I have some conversations with clients where they're like, oh, we don't want to add that on there. But, you know, it's kind of like part of the contractual obligation. So they're kind of like the obvious things. Packaging designs. You have to adhere to the brand. Packaging. It can't. 

 Sometimes you can have a collaboration that can work, but for the most part, it needs to all, you know, come together at retail, so everyone would adhere to the packaging guidelines that the licensor provides. 

 I remember when we worked at Cartoon Network together, you received a hilarious submission, and I'd love for you to share that again as an example of something that is a big no, no. 

 So I know what one you're saying. So it. We. We got a T. I think it was a T shirt. And it was Podcast from Shrek and Ben 10. And Ben 10 was riding donkey as if he was a horse. 

 And. 

 I mean, we laughed. We laughed so hard. But bearing in mind we didn't, you know, that wasn't owned by Cartoon Network. It was owned by DreamWorks. So were like, what's going on here? So, yeah, at the time were like, okay, this isn't going to work. So we had to explain to them, you can't mix characters from other properties, especially ones that aren't owned by our company. So that was a. No, no, we got that changed. And Ben was not riding anything by the end of that submission. 

 I mean, in what world Would Ben 10 be riding donkey from Shrek? 

 Exactly, exactly. 

 And this is a. A good lesson that, you know, us being in the licensing world for as long as we have, we think it goes without saying, but certainly mixing properties is a big no. Shrek and Podcast owned by Universal, Ben 10 owned by Cartoon Network. Having a T shirt with Ben 10 riding donkey is absolutely not approved. I do wonder if they sent the same submission to Universal if there were a Universal licensee as well. If they're. 

 I don't. 

 And what that reaction would have been. 

 I don't think they were very cotton, Donkey, especially back there. I think times have changed and I do think that this is a. What were saying before is years ago there wouldn't have been those collaborations even, like, at all. It wouldn't even been heard of. But now you're getting all these fantastic collaborations, you know what Care Bears are doing, what hello Kitty doing with, like all of their collaborations. So now there's like a slight change, but we've had to evolve to that and change and switch up the game. But back then, yeah, you couldn't even mix your own properties that were part of your portfolio, let alone another person. 

 Yeah, I think that's a really good point. What I really love what Care Bears are doing right now. So for those that may have not seen it, Care Bears are collaborating with other licenses. So there's this beautiful style guide that's just launched with Care Bears and Sesame Street. They've also done Care Bears and Wicked, a range of other kind of collaborations. And the reason why that can happen is essentially both licenses have agreed to work together on this kind of limited edition style guide and partnership. And so they will create, say, the Care Bear Sesame Street Style Guide. They'll provide that to their licensees and they can develop licensed product around it using the approved images and assets within that style guide. 

 But what they can't do is, you know, have a Care Bear riding Big Bird, for example, you know, so that's sort of like the equivalent of that. So there are sort of mashup style guide mashups happening now. In the licensing world, which is really fun to see, but that still doesn't give a green light to any licensee that wants to do a mashup where those licensors have already agreed. 

 Yeah, no, it's. There's still guidelines and rules and regulations and I think that's sometimes what is a little bit of a shock to our clients is the do's and don'ts. I think, you know, and if you've never worked in this industry, you wouldn't know, but I think a lot of them think that once they've got the contract, it's like, wee, let's go. 

 You know, that license, it's not a license to take the property and do whatever you want with it. And, and anyone that's read a licensing agreement will see that there's very. Guidelines in place and processes in place for the approvals. We've talked about the concept stage and we'll move on to the next stage in a moment, but can you talk a bit about the typical turnaround times that we can expect from licensors at each stage? 

 Sure. So when we submit anything onto the systems, officially, they have usually, I'd say it was 10 working days, so two full weeks before they can return the submission back to us. And that can just be for a review. That doesn't mean you're going to get instant approval. I would say most times you're going to get at least one review stage and that's if you're lucky. So you have to take that into consideration when you're planning, which I think is also another shock to some people, because you think two weeks, that's one submit, then you've got to take the time to do the resubmit. That can take a few days, maybe a week, depending on what they've submitted back to you on your collection, and then that's another two weeks, that's five weeks gone just on that one resubmit. 

 So it resets, doesn't it? It's not like they've spent 10 working days to review and provide feedback the first time round. But then when you resubmit, they're not going to look at it within an hour. You know, it's the whole 10 working day resets again. So that's where. So you're talking about the time it takes to do the initial design, then you submit it, then perhaps 10 working days to get feedback, then the time that takes for you to make the request to changes, then submit again and so those listening can really start to understand how all that time can add up and why it's just not practical whatsoever to have product to market, you know, in two months time. 

 Yeah. And I think it's, you know, it's good to be aware that you think of, even the big studios only still have quite relatively small teams and then they, so they have thousands of submissions coming in. So it's, that's why they need those 10 days. And I have to say we work with some great licensors who do often sort of will help us to achieve our goals as long as we give a really good plan. And there's a lot of strategic thinking going into it. I'm big on the planning. I always like to give us as you know. 

 And I think that is like part of this is trying to build up goodwill with the licensor as well. What they're not going to do is provide quick turnaround for company for licensees that are unorganized. They are not listening to them. They're submitting things without, you know, putting much thought behind the concepts. If there is urgency, then licensors will try their best to prioritize, but it won't be every time, you know, they'll, that favor bank runs dry eventually. Yeah, yeah. I think you can choose your favors certainly. 

 Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, when I worked at Cartoon Network, you're talking on average I'd have between 800 and 1000, over a thousand submissions in my inbox at any one time. And heaven forbid I ever took a day holiday or, you know, was ill because I'd just come back with 300 more. It was like a constant waterfall. 

 Yeah, I remember that because, you know, at the time Jenna and I were working together, I was on a desk that was almost facing you. I think you were in front to the left. And I would get my licensees because I was working in FMCG and promotions across emea and you know, those licensees typically need sometimes quicker approvals than others. And so I had them hounding me and so I would be like, hey, Jenna, how you going with this? And I see you've got, you know, hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands of submissions you're working on. And I was trying to be that squeaky wheel, but so was everybody else. So, you know, it's a real challenge when you're the product development person and you're trying to prioritize and you've got a thousand things to work on and 80% of them are urgent. 

 Everybody's hounding you, emailing you, calling you, and then you've got your colleagues like me going, jenna, please, no, just do this favor. Just do this favor. So I think that's really important for anybody that's waiting on a submission and thinking, oh, my gosh, it's the sixth working day. Why is it taking so long? That context is really important. So tell me about what comes after the concepts day. So just to summarise, the concept is basically submitting the first round of design. And you can assume there might be a bit of back and forth once the licensor approves the concept. What's the next stage? 

 So the next stage, I mean, it is dependent on what, like, what product you do. But the next stage would be the pre production stage. So this would be for soft lines, like a strike off. So like a material piece with, you know, you have the print on it. And then for like a, you know, a 3D product, you would need to be. You usually sometimes get another action. I'm gonna. I might complicate things here, but I think it's good to know. If you have a 3D figurine, say it's a character sculpted one, There'll be an additional stage where it will be for, like sculpting CAD files where they'll need to see what's going to print. So that's like a little mini stage before, but you can kind of do that with the concept. And then. So the main next stage is pre production. 

 So for hardlines products that will be a prototype of what you're proposing to go to mass production with. Now, depending on the product, it can be slightly complicated or, you know, I think soft lines is not. It's quite easy. It's like a, you know, a piece of material. As long as it looks exactly like that approved concept, they. They should say, yeah, great, fine. For hard lines, you need to make sure that everything that you've done is matched correctly. So the pantone colors, the printing techniques, it really does depend on your product. But this stage should be okay because, you know, we would definitely work with our clients to make sure that it is a true replica of what we've proposed at concept stage. 

 So usually this is the one where we might do a lot of work between us and them, but by the time it gets to the licensor that it should be pretty much a straight approval or it will be. Maybe they'll ask for a rolling change. Like, they'll be like, oh, this looks great, but can you make sure that this color is a little bit more warm on this section and then they'll do it as a roll change, something like that. So that's pre production. So. 

 And it is really important to stick with what was approved at concept stage. Right? Because if you submit something at pre production stage that's wildly different than what was approved at concept, then it opens up a whole can of worms, doesn't it? 

 Yeah, yeah, no, it has. You can't change anything. I think that's one of the things that is a, is one of the missteps is that, you know, there isn't a three step approval process and everything has to be approved at each stage before anything else. Like it's a collaboration between, you know, the licensee and the licensor. At the end of the day I've had people think that at concept stage that means they're off, that's it, we got the approval concept, we're done. And I, when I have to tell them that, you know, remember we talked about these stages and they're like, oh yeah, I thought that was just with you, like, you know, and it's easily done. If you've never done it before, how are you supposed to know? 

 So it is really important that it is a collaborative effort and you make sure that you are not changing anything in between the stages. 

 A quick pause here. If what we're discussing is really resonating with you're going to love what I've put together in Learn to License. This isn't just another course. It's two decades of real world licensing experience distilled into actionable strategies you can use immediately. I've worked with everyone from startups to Fortune 500 brands and the patterns for success are surprisingly consistent. The course covers all things that you need to consider when it comes to licens, particularly those who are just starting out. So visit learntolicense.com your future licensing dealers will thank you. All right, back to our conversation. 

 So we know with concepts that they're submitted and it's, you know, usually a digital file or an upload or an email or an upload to their system or whatever. The pre production stage is that the point where physical products are submitted. Like do they have to mail physical products to the licensor so they can look at it in real life? 

 It really does depend on the licensor. Pre Covid. Yes, it was absolutely, it was non negotiable. You would be taking, I mean you'd just take all of your samples to their office if they were near or you'd send them, make sure they're all packed up all neatly, get them over, get them approved. It was a pre Covid, it was a longer process because then you would especially because if you were prototyping something. Prototypes can be very expensive for a licensee. I know I, I, I know we've, I've, in my lifetime I've spent probably about, not me personally, but my company have spent like $2,500 on prototype, one singular prototype. 

 So we would, I would physically take that prototype to the office of the license or get it approved and then take it back because that was cheaper and quicker than us packing it up and sending each time. So it can be complicated and thankful that has changed now. That's the one of the good things that did come out of COVID is that now they accept not all and it is depends on the licensor. But they do now accept high res images. Maybe not for the first time that you work with them just because obviously they've never worked together before. So they like to get that established relationship first. But once you've had that, nine times out of ten you can do like turnaround images. But they have to be clear. 

 They have to be, you know, very good and not professional but just very clear so that licensor can review accordingly and make sure that it matches. 

 The approved concept, particularly if they're looking at the color. So the lighting needs to be a high res image with great lighting so that the licensor can say yes, this is the right color that they're using. 

 Yeah, yeah. I think if you're working on hard lines you can match it to Pantones. It's a little bit easier to Pantone chips. 

 Is that where they're literally taking a photo of the product and then a Pantone chip next to it so that the licensor can see that it's the same, it's the right Pantone. 

 Yeah, I mean I'm big on whatever we can do to get that approval. If it means taking lots of photos with the color chips next to it, whether it be hardline, soft lines, as much information as possible. You're more than likely to get the approval. As long as you know that it's correct, then that will save you another four weeks. So I'm big on all, any information you've got. Send everything all over in one go so that they don't have to ask you for anything. 

 Yeah. Which is, which is good. You do save a lot of time if you give the license or everything they need and they can, you know, hit that approval button rather than ask for questions and then the time will reset. That's, that's the key. So if we've passed pre production stage, we've got all the approvals. What comes next then? 

 The final is the contractual stage. So this is the time where you would send your contractual samples. So each licensor will be different. It can be three samples, it could be six. I've had 34 samples before requested of an individual skew. Yeah, yeah, it was a big one. 

 So. And this is. There is that there is cost implications here. So that's something that if you're listening to this and you're new to licensing and you're trying to think about all the costs involved, you know, it's not just royalties and minimum guarantee, it's actually costs of providing samples as well throughout this process. And if a license or is going to ask for 30 samples, which is very rare, I mean typically it's what, 6, between 6 and 12. Is that kind of standard? 

 Yeah, yeah, that's the average. 

 But if you've got, you know, a very expensive product, let's say for example, you're doing fridges, which are, you know, high value items and they're enormous and expensive to send. Make sure when you're negotiating a licensing agreement to maybe say we're going to provide you with one final sample, production sample, rather than 6 or 12, so that you're, you know, not going to find yourself in a spot where you're having to provide a lot of fridges to the licensor. 

 Yeah, I mean it was, you know, what we used to do is we'd make sure that we incorporated when were like placing all of our pos, we would, you know, look across all of our contracts and be like, okay, we need to send that to them. And we'd incorporate into the pos. So again, it's more planning is thinking before rather than getting to the end and being like, oh, by the way, you've got to do six samples of each sku, which, you know, it can be hefty, especially if you have, you know, say you're launching three collections and each collection has like 15 SKUs in it. That's six individual samples of each individual SKU. So it can be quite, it does mount up, but it's usually one of the non negotiables. 

 So if you're doing a collection of 20 SKUs, then we're talking about 100 and wait, hang on, my maths. So we're talking. We're talking about 120. 

 Yeah, I'm not going to help you on the maths. I'm all about the product. 

 That's about 120 different products that you're essentially having to send. If it's six examples of 20 individual SKUs. 

 I mean, if you remember when were at Cartoon Network, I was just constantly surrounded by boxes. It was like Fort Knox around me. 

 Yeah. It's like, where's Jenna? Is Jenna here today? See her? We hear like the clacking of a keyboard and we're like, oh, she's in. 

 Honestly, like, so we would have to have, you know, if you didn't get to those, you just end up getting kept in. It was. And then the big boss would come around, they'd be like, jenna, samples. Put them away. Because we'd had cupboards and stuff, but I wanted to process them. So, yeah, it's a lot of. A lot of samples. A lot of samples. 

 So on this final production stage, is this where they're essentially taking the first products that come off the production run and sending them to the licensor? 

 Yeah. So ideally we need to get them over as soon as possible. You know, if you're shipping and depending on where you are in the world, that can take, you know, several weeks. So if you could get them straight off the line and sent straight to the licensor, then we can close out the submission and then you're all good to sell. And this is the easy stage, believe it or not, because, you know, you've done all the work, they know what you're creating, you know, it's going to match to what you've approved at pre production. So it's more of a case of, you know, just that last stage of crossing the barrier and I guess the. 

 Licensor would only have issues. Again, if there's something different than what was approved in pre production, then there's going to be a problem. And that's going to be an enormous problem for the licensee. If they've gone ahead and done a full production run and there's something wrong with the product. 

 Yeah. 

 And it does happen. It's easily done. Like sometimes it could be, like, usually it's happens in packaging. Just because you have. If you've had loads of, like, amends on a packaging and you've got all these files and you're like rushing to get stuff out, you send it out and it's easy for the factory to use the wrong packaging. That's also happened to me before. It's very stressful. And they've printed the full run. I mean, luckily we reprinted it because we caught it early. But if you don't catch it early and that gets shipped, you know, most people manufacture in China. You're only as good as what your partner over there is telling you. These things can happen and they can get shipped. 

 And then you've sent that over and, you know, if it's a legal thing, if it's a legal line, or is something that's really damaging to the brand. Yeah, that product can get recalled. 

 So it's, if it's a URL, like what we saw an unfortunate incident that happened last year with Mattel and the Wicked products that they launched, where there was a website on the back of the pack that was a wicked dot com, which turned out to be an adult content website rather than wickedmovie.com which was the actual theatrical website. And I think that was a very innocent mistake by everybody involved. And a lot of people were really piling on Mattel and the Wicked team. And, you know, I kind of, I remember I made a post on LinkedIn, sort of standing up for the product development people, because behind these kind of mistakes, there are, you know, people, their jobs, their passions and they would be feeling very, you know, very horrible about the situation. And this was something that the media really picked up. 

 Everybody was talking about it and it was actually my number one post I've ever done on LinkedIn. It had about 750,000 impressions because half of the people agreed with me that we should not pile on. It was human error. This was a mistake that anyone could make and just leave these people alone. And the other half were like, no, how could you possibly make a mistake like this? I think the people that were really critical don't understand product development. They don't understand how the process works and how an innocent mistake like this could actually happen. I mean, how did you feel when you saw that situation? Were you more on the side of feeling for those people or were you more on the side of, like, that's a stupid mistake? 

 Oh, no, I absolutely felt sorry for everyone involved. It's not just the PD team like these. This gets checked several times over throughout the company. It's such a human error. I, I, yeah, and it could be a case of, as we, as I just said, it could be a print in error where that was maybe picked up. And I. We don't. We don't know. We weren't in the room, but yeah, I mean, anything like that will make your heart drop. It's. As I said, this happened to me. It's very stressful in the moment. And do you know what. What a great marketing campaign at the end of the day, not that Wicked needs it, but. 

 Absolutely. I mean, it got a lot of traction. I think that, you know, people were rushing to born the products with the. With the actual incorrect. They became like a collector's item, a limited edition. They're like, oh, this is the. This is a rare one with. With the wrong URL. Like, I think people were throwing themselves out there to try and get their hands on it. So, you know, I don't think it was all bad, but I think it's always interesting when you see those kind of stories out there in the general wider press because it's. It gives people a look into what our industry is all about and how important it is to understand the roles that people play and really try and be a bit more understanding of people. Like, these people are working extremely hard. 

 Like you mentioned, when you're at Cartoon Network, you're dealing with a thousand submissions, and so things can go wrong. Things slip through the cracks. Despite having sort of systems in place to ensure that they don't. It can happen, and it did. And, you know, hopefully the people that made the mistake weren't, you know, weren't penalized by that. 

 I hope not. I do also think, like, legal lines are. That they're tricky, and that's something that I'll always try and look out for. And. And we'll. Just. Because of. Because I've learned from the past mistakes like that, where, you know, a full stop in the wrong place can change everything, and that becomes a legal issue. So, yeah, it is. Human error can do that to you. And you definitely learn from these mistakes. You definitely don't want to go through those mistakes again, for sure. 

 I think this is one of the challenges you're highlighting with the someone in product development is that you've got two extremes. You've got one where you're dealing with an enormous volume of work product approvals, thousands in your inbox, people hounding you. But on the other side of things, you have to have extreme level of attention to detail, and if something slips through the cracks, then it can create a massive PR nightmare. Like what we saw with that example I just shared. So, I mean, it's a balance, really? 

 No, absolutely. And not just packaging. Like if you know, we create products for people who have such passions for these brands. Like, you know, look at the Star wars fans, you know, the Marvel fans. If you get one thing wrong, they will come for you in forums. They are so passionate and so driven by these characters and these worlds that you need to have a little bit of knowledge on this. You know, it could be something as you do the wrong button for Darth Vader and yes, I've. That comes from experience. The blue is. Blue is. Yeah, the blue is over the red on his chest palette. So it can happen and people will come for you and you may not have a very good sleep for a few weeks. 

 I can imagine all these Star wars fans looking at this thing and being like, how dare you? You've got the button wrong. 

 I will always blame it on the continuity issues of a 70s film. That's the way I'm going for. I've got the wrong era as well now. But all I'm saying is that, you know, all products that we work on with the newer stuff is a lot easier because it's a lot more material to work with. But no, yeah, these mistakes grow and shape you. I think in our industry you definitely won't make them a second time around, let you tell you. 

 So that's the product development journey. Thanks Jenna, for taking us through that. Let's talk to those listening that are first time licensees. They've never done licensing before. They're thinking about getting into licensing from a product development side of things. What are some common challenges that first time licensees will face particularly? 

 Oh, I think we mentioned it previously, but the biggest one is time management. I think I cannot stress to people enough. Please incorporate these stages into your plans. I mean, again, this is something I work on with any client that comes in. I'll create a critical path for them and a spreadsheet. And I know that when I first take them through, some people are like, oh, this is a long time, we don't need that long. And then when they do it, they then understand why I've put, you know, that buffer room in. Because there is nothing worse than not getting your stuff out because you haven't incorporated that time into it. 

 And you know, critical paths can include things that I know that if, unless you've worked in the industry for a long time, you know, holiday closures, Christmas, July, the 4th, you know, there's all these things they'll. Those days aren't included in the in that 10 day turnaround. Yeah. Chinese New Year is a big one. I always say to you, don't include. David will be like, oh, well, let's. 

 Let'S expand about that a bit more. Because this comes up with any of our clients and it's a big part of the licensing industry for anybody that's manufacturing in China, that Chinese New Year really is a setback and everybody needs to plan for it. So tell us a bit more about how long, when is Chinese New Year? How long do people usually take off and what, how can companies or new licensees sort of like tackle that, account for that period? 

 So Chinese New Year happens at the end of January. It's usually the factory closes for a few weeks, but there'll be times prior to that and afterwards where they're not up to their full capacity the way they were before. So it will take slower. So I always will take that whole month out just to say, let's put that into the time period. So in that moment, you could say you're in this whole process with the approvals and then it gets to January and you've not planned land, but it's time for prototyping. Oh, oh, dear. Chinese New Year's come. Oh, I didn't factor into that. So that's four and now I need this prototype. I've only got the approval and they're closed for four weeks or you're not gonna, they're not gonna be able to get you that prototype for another four weeks. 

 And that's always, it's things like that. Like you, I always like to plan for the full whack because otherwise these little things will come up and before you know it, you've got three months added onto the initial launch deadline that you've proposed. And there are ways of avoiding that, and that is by planning. So, yeah, Christmas. Will all the, yeah, all the offices always obviously be closed at Christmas. So the Disney teams, Marvel teams, all of that. 

 So let's talk about planning, because I know you do this a lot with our clients. If you're a new licensee, how do you plan? How do you plan? Do you think of, okay, I want to launch this for the holidays and work your way back or what' best way to kind of tackle that? 

 Yeah, I mean, I would always start with the launch date first and work my way back and look at the milestones I need to hit in order to reach that launch date. Usually when you do that, you then realize you don't have enough time. Sometimes Sometimes. So you'll get to a point, you're like, oh, I should have started two months ago. And then what I tend to do is I'll sit and I'll tweak all the plans. So I'll be like, okay, well, so say we don't spend two weeks. What if I can negotiate with the licensor? Because this is our first launch. Because, you know, sometimes when the contracts are coming, the licensor knows you've got to get it out, so they also agree. So then I can also have those conversations. So you can. On the first launch, that sometimes can happen. 

 After that, you're on your own logic. After that, you've got, you got to incorporate the time. But there are things that you can do to make sure that, you know, don't sit on something for too long. Like if you get some designs back, you know, make sure that we can get them back over to the license or within sort of 48 hours, if that's feasible, instead of sitting on it for a week. Because if you haven't planned, sometimes you'll be like, oh, it's only a week. And then before you know it, if you've got three resubmits, that's another three weeks. So it is. You've got to be quite particular in the planning to sort of make sure that you're staying on track. Sometimes I make these lovely plans and then I'm like. And then all of a sudden we're ahead of the plan. 

 So it does go the other way as well. But it's just nice to see, have something set in stone and have those milestones so that you could at least work out where you. Where you're coming and going from, because you don't want to not plan. And then all of a sudden you're like, nowhere near your launch date. And there's that frustration. That's the worst. 

 I think having contingency as well is really smart. So, you know, if you think it'll take six or even nine months for this product development process, can you give it a year? Can you just have a little bit of headroom for things that might go wrong? Because things do go wrong unexpectedly. And it's really helpful to have those extra. That extra buffer in time. The other thing to mention is for those that are asking licensors to prioritize and maybe go faster than usual on certain occasions if things are urgent, it's a really bad look if you're pushing the license or. And they come back within in four or Five business days, and then you sit on it for three weeks and then you resubmit and you say to license or we need approval in 24 hours or something like that is horrible. 

 You need to prioritize it as a business yourself as well. If you're expecting licensors to prioritize this, it has to absolutely be a priority for you. Licensors are much more likely to review things quicker if you were demonstrating that it's a hot. A top priority for you and that you've dropped everything to make the changes that they've asked for and resubmitted because it's a top priority for your business. But if you're dragging your feed, if you're doing other things, if you know, waiting three me three weeks before the resubmission, the licensor is going to be like, but we just lost three weeks waiting for your team to update. Is that, is that sort of part of the process as well? 

 Yeah, no, it definitely sets the tone for the relationship. And I mean, in my experience, I've asked for favors before and then the next time round, because we maybe we ended up dropping the product or we didn't launch on time and they've literally worked their little tushes off to get us that approval and then it was all in vain. Then next time they're less inclined to help. And it's never a rude thing. It's never like, oh, we don't want to work with you. It's more of a, oh, I'll be able to get to it in a week, politely. And then in my head I'm like, that's because you. It's like the boy who cried wolf, I guess. 

 Yeah. So we said it was urgent. It turns out it wasn't. And so they're not going to believe us the next time. 

 Yeah. So, I mean, it's a lot of trust and negotiation between ourselves and the licensor. So you don't want to obviously take the mick there. 

 Let's talk about executing licenses and incorporating IP onto product, because I think that, you know, when we started in licensing, which was, you know, almost two decades ago, there was a lot more label slapping that went on than there is now. Today, it needs to be much more of a collaboration and it just be putting a logo or a pose on a shirt or something like that. There needs to be. Needs to be more. Can you tell us a little bit more about the advice that you provide to our clients as it relates to incorporating the IP onto their product? 

 Yeah. I mean, I'm big in the world of. Again, it actually does depend on the licensor. Some licensors obviously have brands that are very strategic and they, you know, they have certain rules that they don't want you to adhere to. But if you are given the chance to be creative, make it stand out, make it. But whilst you're making it stand out, make it be true to the brand. You know, would. I'm trying to think of a character now. Spongebob's a bit wacky, so we won't use him. But, like, I don't know, would Moana be doing something like this? Like, say you. You wanted to do a Moana product and you were a outdoors company, would you. You wouldn't want her sitting on a bike? Because that's obviously not in the world of Moana. 

 I'm being very literal here, but, you know, but would she be, you know, in the sea paddling something and that's an outdoor toy. I'm being very literal here, but it's about ensuring that the brands are staying true to what they are on screen or wherever, you know, and I think it's important to make sure that the characters are only ever being represented and how their personalities are in their worlds, within their worlds. 

 It needs to feel authentic. And again, it comes to what you mentioned, Jenna, before, about, you know, Star wars fans are going to get angry if something's off Fan bases also get angry if something feels forced, if it doesn't feel natural to the character, if they are seeing, you know, a character doing something behaving a certain way that is different to what the. What the character is all about, it starts to feel not authentic and people can take really personally. 

 Yeah, yeah, they do. And I think it's, you know, and there's times where brands have been oversaturated in the market because in the past, where they just wanted the sales, so it ends up all the product doesn't really mean anything. It doesn't feel like it's, as you said, authentic. So that's why it's really important to. When we're creating the designs for, you know, the products that we're working on, you know, is it staying true to the brand? And then usually we get to an understanding where this will work, and that's when it does really well. 

 Yeah. The last thing I want to talk to you about was, do you have any tips or any advice you'd give somebody who is interested in pursuing a career in licensing, particularly in the product development area? Is it A rewarding part of the industry. Would you tell people, no, don't do it's too stressful. What would you say? 

 Oh, I would tell absolutely everyone to go for it. We need more people coming in. It's a really, I find it's quite a niche area. I definitely think that people will usually end up in more of the sales side. It's a lot more opportunity there, I think. But once you're in the product side, it's just super fun. And if you have a passion for brands and creating products, it's like the most rewarding thing. Like I've worked with people who create product for non licensed stuff and I just don't think I'd have the same passion if it didn't have all these things that I loved as a child and as well as now as an adult. Because there's so much content now being created that it's never boring. Never, never boring. You know, I mean, and things are changing. 

 Like products used to be for me, like toys. I used to love the toy side of it and now I get excited over, you know, like the Baskin Robbins partnership with Netflix on the Scoops Ahoy. Because that to me is. It's just ice cream, but it's branded into a product that came from Stranger Things world. 

 It's just experience now, the turn into an experience, which is incredible. I mean, if you're the type of person where you walk down the street and then you walk into a Primark or a Walmart and if you get excited of the thought of saying, seeing a T shirt that you were heavily involved with, you manage the product development side of things. If that's like, except excites you, then you're certainly the type of person I think would really enjoy being in a product development role. 

 Yeah, yeah, no, agreed. I love it. 

 Well, let's leave it there. Thanks so much, Jenna, for joining us on the Bornlicensing to License podcast. You're one of the most experienced people in this space, so it's such a privilege to be able to have you on for our listeners to be able to hear specifically from you a lot of tips and your experience in product development. Anything you wanted to add before we wrap up? 

 No, no, just that was, that was fun. Thank you. Thank you very much. 

 Well, thanks so much for jumping on Jenna. 

 Thank you. 

 I hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Bornlicensing to License podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe. And if you're eager to learn more about licensing, I encourage you take a look at my course, Learn to License. I've condensed almost 20 years of learning in my licensing career. To help others understand how licensing works. And as a reward for sticking around, here is a discount code for you to put in. I hope to see you there.