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Born to License
Unlock the secrets of the $350 billion licensing industry with David Born, CEO of Born Licensing & Born to License. Whether you’re a business owner, brand enthusiast, or curious about how your favorite characters and brands make their way onto products, this podcast is your ultimate guide to the world of licensing.
Join David as he shares insider stories, practical tips, and real-world examples, helping you navigate the exciting intersection of creativity, commerce, and collaboration. From product development to pitching, licensing terminology to success stories—get ready to discover the untapped potential of this dynamic industry.
New episodes every two weeks.
Born to License
Inside the World of Location-Based Licensing
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In this episode of Born to License, David Born sits down with Annabel Rochfort, one of the most influential voices in location-based entertainment (LBE).
From her first trip to Disneyland to leading major projects for Cartoon Network, Warner Bros., and Ferrari, Annabel has built a career turning intellectual properties into immersive, real-world experiences.
You’ll learn:
- How licensing and location-based entertainment intersect
- What it takes to translate a brand like Ferrari or Ben 10 into a physical space
- The biggest opportunities (and risks) in LBE today
- Why passion and partnership are key to every successful activation
Now running her own consultancy, Annabel shares lessons from two decades of creating global brand destinations — and where she sees the next wave of innovation coming from.
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I love this industry. I could never, ever see myself working in another industry. I wouldn't even know where to go. So Disneyland Paris opened. My mum took me. I remember looking down Main street and I sort of looked up to my mum and I was like, one day, mum, I'm going to build these.
What was the secret to successfully translating animated characters into physical experiences that resonated globally?
Their journey starts before they get to this attraction. It starts booking those tickets. Then they're planning their trip to Disney. They're buying the backpack, the ears. I mean, it's like going to a concert and buying a T shirt. It allows to make memories. Whether I was working for Ferrari or Cartoon Network, it's always about brand protection. Enzo Ferrari famously said, you ask a child to color in a car, they'll color it in red.
How would you help them understand sort of what will work and what won't work and how to sort of manage any risks?
Anyone that says there are no risks is liar ride safety. The reputational damage is worse.
What trends are you watching most closely in the intersection of licensors and location based entertainment? From Disney theme parks to Ferrari World, location based entertainment transforms beloved brands into immersive experiences. But creating these magical spaces requires navigating complex approvals, massive investments and years of development. Annabel Rochfort from Rochfort’s LBE consultancy has overseen iconic attractions for entertainment giants and luxury brands alike. Today, she reveals what it takes to bring IP to life. And I hope you enjoy. Before we dive into today's show, I wanted to share something really exciting with you. For the first time ever, I'm opening my vault of nearly 20 years of licensors experience through my online course, Learn to License. Whether you're just starting out or looking to level up your licensors game, this is everything I wish I'd known when I began my journey.
From deal structures to finding the right license, knowing if you're ready and how to pitch like a pro. It's all there, the fundamentals that separate successful licensors from everyone else. Visit learntolicense.com and let's get you from curious to confident. Now let's jump into today's episode. Annabelle, you're one of the most influential voices in location based entertainment. Although I'm a seasoned expert when it comes to licensors, this is an area that I really don't know much about. A real niche, and I'm really looking forward to talking today. So, Annabelle, or actually I'm going to call you Bella, because we've known each other for quite a while. Welcome to Born to License.
Thank you very much for having me.
So you've built your career at the intersection of licensors and location based entertainment. Tell me what drew you to this unique space and how has it evolved over your almost 20 year journey?
So should we start right at the beginning when I first went to Disneyland in Paris?
Yeah, yeah.
Should we start there? So Disneyland Paris opened. My mum took me to Disneyland for the first time. I never went to the one in the US and we kind of walked into the park and I remember looking down Main street and I sort of looked up to my mum and I was like, one day mum, I'm going to build these, you know. And my mum sort of like sympathetically like tapped me on the head and was like, I hope you do, darling. And I think that was, that was the start of my career. But going into my more later life, my professional years, I started my life at Earl's Court and Olympia. For those people that will remember that actually where the brand licensors used to be held at Olympia. So I used to work there.
From there I moved on to HET Entertainment which is now Mattel, working as a manager within Location Based Entertainment. I came more for the role because of the operational experience that I had as a background. I didn't really have much licensors experience so it was a new world for me, but a world that I absolutely sort of fell into and fell in love with straight away. Four years I was at Mattel, then I moved from there to Time Warner which is obviously where you and I met, overseeing the location based business for Emea and towards the end also Latin America as well. And from there obviously moved over the seas to the land of good food, Italy, where I worked at Ferrari overseeing all of their branded entertainment.
So the operation of their two museums in Maranello and Modena, to launching their esports tournament, to obviously reviewing and new opportunities for them and running their existing parks in Spain and Abu Dhabi.
It sounds like you're following the same story that a lot of licensors professionals where you found yourself in this amazing industry and then you've just decided to stay in it. You've had a lot of different roles, you've done, you know, different things. But you know, it sounds like you really have a passion for location based entertainment which is why you've stuck in it for such a long time.
I love this industry. I could never ever see myself working in another industry. I, I wouldn't even know where to go to be honest. Now I just love it so much, you know, I think it's so important that we spend so much time doing our job that it's. You have to enjoy it and also have the added benefit of working with some incredible people who have helped me along the way and been incredible mentors to me.
So it just shows that it doesn't matter what area of licensors that you're in, even if it's an area like this, it's still something that you love and you're holding on to. So tell me about. You were at Cartoon Network for eight years and you oversaw the expansion into theme parks and water parks, cruise ships, hotels. What was the secret to successfully translating animated characters into physical experiences that resonated globally?
So I think the most important thing is taking a step back and really understanding what the company objectives are. So, you know, obviously my role within Time Warner was one of many roles within that company, from people creating amazing content to advertising sales to, you know, you doing your F FMCG and, you know, hard lines, soft lines. You know, there's a whole kind of ecosystem within these companies, and you obviously need to not just focus on your business, but focus on the wider business. And when you take these brands and you bring them to life, it has to be in line with what everybody else in the company is doing, particularly, you know, the. The creative divisions driving this content. So it's true to brand. So then you come to the consumer experience.
And that's very much where I sort of start to talk about the consumer journey. And, you know, what does that look like? You know, it's kids. And I love that photo of you, by the way, with Bugs Bunny when you're a little boy and, you know, dressing up as Batman. You know, that's, that's the audience, right? So you're taking a brand for the kids to go and engage with. So their journey starts before they get to this attraction. It starts when mum and dad, auntie and uncle, grandma and grandpa are booking those tickets online. Then they're planning their trip to Disney. They're buying the backpack, the ears, you know, they. They're drawing. Then they get to the hotel, they're met by the characters, they go to their themed room. Then they leave the hotel, they go to the park.
Then they have the most hopefully amazing experience at park they go to. Whether it's branded or not branded, there's always a consumer journey attached to that. And then from there they go home. And that, you know, that sort of relationship with the brand continues because, you know, it supports from a financial, you know, Capacity, it supports the rest of the business with driving, you know, ancillary revenues, the incremental revenue streams. So obviously it would drive, and it would drive other revenues to support the wider business areas through merchandising, you know, through advertising sales. So it really is a great opportunity for any brand to capitalize of free marketing technically, in my opinion.
That photo that you mentioned of me, Bugs Bunny, was actually such a special moment for me because it was at Movie World in Australia and it was such a big deal. We went, I remember went on a holiday to Queensland, which is a big deal for my family. And then we got to go to Movie World. Oh my gosh, I remember it was such an amazing experience. And if that little boy then knew that I'd be working with Bugs Bunny at Warner Brothers and working with all these characters, I think he would be, he would have been so thrilled. It reminds me of, you know, we had the same level of excitement, but I guess the adult version of the excitement this year when I took my team to Disneyland and we had such a great time.
And one of the things that was really surprising to me was walking into the retail stores and it just heaving with people. Heaving with people, particularly to buy the Mickey Mouse ears. And I noticed, I was very much taking note that almost one in every two people at the park that day had bought these ears. And they wouldn't. They're not cheap. They were like 30, $40 a pop and half of the park were wearing them. I mean, what an amazing opportunity. I guess people are buying these so they remember, you know, you can buy these ears, you know, online, I'm sure, but they want the once from the actual park, don't they? They want it from that experience.
I mean, it's like going to a concert and buying a T shirt, right? You know, you go to a concert to buy the T shirt to remember the memories. And that's something as well that's great for location based entertainment is it allows families, which I think is incredible, to make memories. You know, going to a concert, buying a T shirt, you know, it's all about having those keepsakes. And the Disney is which you refer to, they change regularly. So you know, people, they're almost a collector's item, particularly in the U.S. you know, they're obviously the biggest Disney market and you know, you can go into households there and you know, they, the moms and dads have still got, you know, 30, 40 pairs of these ears like collected over the years are going to Disney I mean, it's an incredible brand.
Let's shift gears a bit from entertainment to luxury automotive. With Ferrari, that must have been a really interesting kind of change. How did you adapt your LBE strategy for such a premium, kind of aspirational brand? And what were some of the unique challenges that it presented?
So I always think that going to Ferrari was just kind of like big boy girl toys, you know, so it kind of just. It's the same for me. It's a luxury brand. So obviously with a luxury brand, there comes complexities which you probably don't have so much within the media world that I was used to working within with that being said, you know, Ben 10, when you and I were working on it, you know, it was a million dollars an episode. So, you know, there was still these. This is precious cargo. Any brand is precious cargo. So whether I was working for Ferrari or Cartoon Network, it's always about brand protection, which makes sure that the brand and the experience is true. So, you know, the consumers, they know these brands so well, particularly Ferrari owners.
You know, I mean, they, these guys, they know so much about the history of Ferrari. You know, it's 70, I think it's 77 years old now. Ferrari similar age to Lego, actually, which is why, hence the LEGO Ferrari collaboration at Merlin, which I worked on, we used to call it Flago out of interest, but Lego. So. Yeah, so, you know, I think that it's always really important to make sure that any brand is treated in the same way, and that's to make sure that it's executed in the best possible way and the safest way.
What were some of the activations that you worked on with Ferrari that you. That were probably different than you could have ever done with Ben 10 and other kind of entertainment properties.
So look, you know, I think Ferrari as a brand is, you know, it's innovative, it's thrill, it is luxury. But, you know, watching the passion that goes into building these cars, I mean, it's. It's something like I've. I've never seen. So, you know, kudos to Ferrari on this, but it's because of the brand. When you execute it aligns itself so much organically. So, you know, from the LEGO and Ferrari collaboration was my favorite that I worked on. So obviously the build and race test centers that are now at the Legolands around the world, I think there's like several now, you know, you go, you build your own Ferrari, and then you can test it on multiple kind of little tracks and you know, endurance and you know, video mapping. And so it's really kind of engaging and it's a nostalgic brand, right?
So it's got three generations, you've got kids, mums and dads and grandparents, right, who want to go and work, go and interact with a brand like Ferrari, almost like Thomas and friends as well, another nostalgic brand. So you know, these brands, they tend to, will capture a wider audience. So yeah, so I think that's probably.
My, my thoughts around what's in it for Ferrari. I mean they're ultimately their end goal is to sell cars, right? But why have LB experiences if you're a brand like Ferrari?
So you know, whilst Ferrari is a luxury brand, not everyone can afford a Ferrari. But you know, Ferrari has thousands and thousands of fans around the world who support, whether it's through, you know, F1, through the tifosi, all the way through to kind of, you know, the little boy who grows up and dreams of having a Ferrari one day. You know, Enzo Ferrari famously said you ask a child to color in a car, they'll color it in red. You know, so that's kind of, I think speaks a lot about the brand and about the brand attributes. So. Yeah.
So Bella, this year you launched Rochfort's location based entertainment consultancy. Tell us about that, how you're helping brands today think a bit different about location based opportunities.
So obviously over the 20 years, you know that I've worked in this industry, there's been loads of learnings because when I started in this industry, the licensors location based entertainment model wasn't very familiar, it was quite new. So you know, I've kind of been on this journey. We know a lot more about it now and you know, media companies, lifestyle brands, you know, they're a lot more savvy to kind of how to execute their brands. However, with that what I have been able to do is now move into creating my own business doing what I've always set out, which was obviously own my own company and applied what I've learned and by supporting other companies. So I work, I focus on four core pillars. So the first pillar is I support the licensor.
So brands that are looking to go out into the industry with their luxury publications all the way through to kind of, you know, food and beverage brands which are actually quite big. I mean we see successes with things like the M and M retail stores. So you know, anything where brands drive a revenue is really where I can help build a strategy and align. You know, I have a lot of experience on doing that. And the other thing I do is I sit on the other side of the fence and I can support with real estate developers because a lot of people want to go into this business because they've seen how profitable it is. So how do they approach the license, the licensor, you know, what are they going to need to pay?
You know, what sort of feasibility do they need to do? Is the brand right for them? What's the awareness and affinity within the territory that they want to work in? You know, so I can guide them and hold their hand all the way through that process. Additionally to that, I support businesses by raising capital. So a lot of these projects, you know, sometimes they don't quite get there off the ground because they're 30, 70, 80 million short. Because I've been in this industry for a long time, I'm very lucky that I have a quite an advanced network where I've been able to support some of my clients by raising capital for them so that they can open up their retractions. And then additionally to that I look at merchandising solutions as well.
So retail range plans and really kind of like how to optimize revenue streams within the park. Because ultimately, you know, when you're doing a license agreement, they're not cheap. So you know, the, you really want the licensee to drive as much revenue so that they feel the benefit in success because the more revenue they drive, the more that they'll invest into their park.
What are some of the other revenue areas? I mean obviously there's ticket sales, there's merchandise. Like what else, how else can brand owners make money at the park?
So food and beverage is the biggest margin, you know, it's the biggest one in any, in any theme park is where they're driving most of their revenue from. Addition to that there's also everything from corporate hire sponsorships. You know, we look at the Pepsi Max in Blackpool where you know, that's obviously sponsored by Pepsi, you know, to the Mercedes Benz ride in Europa Park. So you know, there's, there's a lot of big sponsorship opportunities surrounding this as well. I think that those would probably be the key revenue drivers obviously beyond ticket sales and location based entertainment.
Has very much expanded from, you know, beyond traditional theme parks into other areas. What emerging categories are you most excited about at the moment or where do you think there are maybe some untapped opportunities.
So that's a really good question. So this is my, this is obviously my personal opinion. So I think competitive socializing for me is the, is the hotspot at the moment at Ferrari launching the esports tournament during COVID it was the most organic brand extension for the business to continue to engage with their fans. So I think that there's a real power behind competitive socializing where Covid was a big learning. So, you know, to have that competitive socializing where you necessarily might not have to be within the attraction, you could also participate at home. So, you know, like the F1 Esports at the Tottenham stadium, you know, these kind of activations I think are fantastic. So I think competitive socializing is a big one.
I think we're seeing a lot more around the resort destinations as well because, you know, families now like to travel where, you know, economy is tough at the moment.
Right.
So for a family to travel, book a hotel, book a flight and book to go to Universal, book to go to Disney World, booked to go to SeaWorld, wherever they're doing, it's expensive. So if you look at, I think the model, like if you look at what Abu Dhabi do on Yas Islands, which is genius, you know, you stay in the hotels and you get all theme park tickets included within your stay. So I think kind of how the person responsible in the household is booking that, the family holiday, the group gathering away, whatever it is. I think that's something that will also be a big trend is to kind of look to see, right, you know, let's, when we book this, how much more do we have to pay or how much more can we save?
I went to an all inclusive. Actually, it wasn't an all inclusive. It was an all in the same place. A destination resort in the Bahamas where, you know, you go downstairs. Atlantis. Yes, you go downstairs and you could, you know, go on the water slide then go back up to your room if you wanted. And it was great. I didn't have to, you know, get a cab anywhere or anything like that. It was all there and the beach was right there as well. It was, you know, such an amazing experience. So you think this is something where in particularly in the licensors space there's more opportunities to lean into.
Yeah. And I think, you know, as again, it goes back to an internal strategy and having the right people, you know, running this business for the company. But you know, you want to find the best players within the market. You know, at Ferrari, there was never A problem about finding partners. It was always about finding the right partners. So you know, I think that some brands could be tempted because they're probably having to, you know, work harder to sell their brands. You know, I've beat, I've worked for some of these brands. I'm not going to mention them but I've worked for some of these brands which you definitely have to work harder to sell. So I think finding the right partner in the right location is the most important thing.
So you know, if you're building something on Yas island, you know that around you're going to have Sea World, Ferrari World, Warner Brothers and now Disney World. That's, that's going to be opening up there in a few years time. So you know, if you're a brand that can get yourself onto an island like that, it's going to be completely strategic because there's going to be contin flow of traffic going there. You know, if you're a brand that goes and builds in the middle of nowhere, you know who's going to go. I don't think it matters how good the brand is. So I think the destination I think is really key. High to high touristic destinations. I think we've seen a lot of success stories with at the moment.
So when I talk about, you know, frameless in the uk, you know, I think that there's some, it's sort of like the family Entertainment Centers, the 6,000 square meter within a city attraction, you know, interactive museums, the Titanic exhibition, you know the Van Gogh, like all of these kind of pop ups. I think that's, that's an interesting space at the moment because it's a quick turnaround of revenue.
So this area of licensors is very unique for brand owners who you know, perhaps aren't in this space yet and they're naturally protective of their ip. How would you help them understand sort of what will work and what won't work and how to sort of manage any risks.
Look, there's anyone that says there are no risks with signing a licensors agreement within location based entertainment is like. So there's always a risk. You know, you can't be responsible for someone else's child sitting behind a desk in New York or London or Shanghai or wherever you are. So what are some of the risks? Ride safety, you know, I mean that's a big one. Even though as a license agreement you're not going to be depending upon who your lawyer is, you know, you're generally not going to be Liable financially for what happens. But actually the. The reputational damage is worse. Right. So if you have an accident on a ride is awful, not just for the licensors business, but also obviously for the people that are within that. Within that attraction. So I think that's probably, you know, for me up there with the.
With the worst thing that could happen. I think terrorism is on the up. So, you know, you need to be a lot more, you know, careful about, you know, how you manage your security within the park. You know, who's going in there, who's leaving, you know, child safety. Again, we're going to a dark place. You know, we've seen some nasty stories in the press about that. So look, there are.
How do brand owners manage that? Because obviously, very tall. They're not brand, are they?
So then it's not the brand. So listen, and this is where it goes to finding the right partners. So, you know, if you're signing a deal with morale, who, again, I'm just using Yas island as an example because I think it's an incredible operation. What they're doing there is fantastic. So use morale as an example. I worked with them at Ferrari. You know, I've seen what they do at Sea World, at Warner Brothers. You know, they are experienced operators. You know, they have an incredible safety, health and safety plans in place. They've got excellent teams there. You know, these are the people that you want to sign with to protect your brand. And there obviously needs to be a continuous communication with the partner to make sure that, you know these, these health and safety guidelines, you know, that they're keeping to them.
You know, we often used to send secret visitors, like to go and sort of give a review. I often went to the parks myself and paid to go to Ferrari World to pay and to see how the, you know, the customer service would be always happy to support it, always happy to report that it was absolutely fantastic. So I think that finding partner is. Is the key and obviously educating that partner on your brand because you know, you. Again, you know, you. That you're signing over your precious cargo as a license or to somebody that probably doesn't know it or understand it as well as you do, because you work in that company, you know, you live and breathe that brand.
You're surrounded by a lot of very talented, creative people who have spent so much time educating you on that brand and its core values. So you. It's really key that, you know, you pass whoever's working within the park So I used to do a lot of train the trainer manuals, you know, about the brands. I remember working on IMG World Adventures, there was a huge recruitment drive and because Dubai being such an international space, they had, you know, 25 different languages, you know, of staff speaking within that park. And some of these, the staff at the park, you know, they didn't, they'd never heard of Cartoon Network before. So, you know, it's making sure as well that the, that the person who's, you know, you're buying your merchandise from, your food, beverage from is also aware of what your brand is.
Because you know, if you, David is going to a theme park, to Bugs Bunny theme park and you go and ask, you know, somebody about Bugs Bunny and they're like, who's that? You know, that's going to kind of crush your experience when you're there. So I think, you know, it starts all the way from the very senior management as to who you're signing that contract is to the person who's, you know, selling the tickets. So it's an ecosystem and it's something that needs to be handled very carefully.
A quick pause here. If what we're discussing is really resonating with you're going to love what I've put together in Learn to License. This isn't just another course. It's two decades of real world licensors experience distilled into actionable strategies you can use immediately. I've worked with everyone from startups to Fortune 500 brands and the patterns for success are surprisingly consistent. The course covers all things that you need to consider when it comes to licensors, particularly those who are just starting out. So visit learntolicense.com your future licensors deals will thank you. All Right, back to our conversation. So that's some great advice for brand owners, licensors that are potentially thinking about getting in this space or already in this space and want to improve things. Let's flip it the other way around.
So thinking about the operators that are looking for the ideal licensor, what red flags should they be aware of when they're looking for the right partner?
So red flags, lack of brand awareness I think is obviously key within the territory. You know, you could sign with a brand that's huge in Japan, but if nobody knows it in Australia, what's the point in signing it right? It's not going to work. So I think really making sure that brand is right for you once you've found that brand, looking what the brand plans are so looking at the longevity of that brand, you know, if it's a media brand, content has been green lit for how many years, you know, is it going to be continued, continue to be aired on, you know, catch up or is it going to have a dedicated channel on sky, you know, like where, what are their plans with that, what collaborations do they have coming up with that brand?
And for any brand, you know, it's looking at their future plans within their company and making sure that company is continuously investing into that brand. Because like we've seen with cartoon brands over the years. I don't want to mention any, but you know, I've worked on brands which were absolute huge, you know, doing 1.1 billion at retail and then you know, three years later, you know, where is it? I mean nobody knows it. And these brands are now existing in theme parks. So you know, I think that making sure that brand has a, has a long life is really important which is leading on, you know, working in both lifestyle and media.
I, I do think that there is a strength in taking a lifestyle brand, you know, like whether it's a food and beverage brand again M&M's, you know, Haribo, you know, these kind of brands, you know, they're, they're great brands I think to sustain because they have continuous investment, because they make sweets, they're always on the shelf, right. Or they have a product, they do Easter eggs, they do, you know, whatever. So I think food and beverage brands are interesting movie brands. Again, you know, there's very few movie brands that we've seen that could sustain a life in a theme park for 10 years. So you know, I think we've obviously seen Harry Potter incredible, but they still managed to obviously keep Harry Potter alive by bringing out fantastic beasts. Right.
So there's now kind of like the fantastic beast zones, you know, Avatar at Disney. Again an absolute ideal movie brand to put into a theme park. It's just such a beautiful film on how it's been made. I think something like Lord of the Rings would probably sustain as well. James Bond obviously, I think again a nostalgic heritage brand. I'm trying to think of other brands that I think Game of Thrones, it maybe not a family brand so you'd probably like obviously maybe half your audience but I think, you know, brands of that power would also work from a movie capacity. Again, you know, even I don't, again I don't want to mention individual brands but We've seen brands that are in very big theme parks in the U.S. big movie brands that did really well for the first couple of movies.
And then again, they died. So they kind of check. They're kind of stuck in these parks now and the kids just don't really want to go because they don't know what the movie is. It, it hasn't, you know, it's not, it's, they're just not of interest to them.
So your advice is to really identify a brand that has longevity. I mean, in terms of timing. And this is going to be a difficult question to answer because I know it's very much on a case by case basis, but if somebody right now is thinking about, let's say opening a theme park and they're thinking about what IP they want to work with, how long will it take from now to when they actually incorporate the IP into the theme park? Is it, is it four years, six years, 10 years?
So, okay, look, it's different depending on obviously how big the attraction is. So if it's a small scale attraction of 4 to 5,000 square meters, you could probably do a licensors agreement within six months. Months. And then, you know, if you own the building already. So say you've got a shell of a building, you just need to fill it. It would depend on the ride lead time. You know, these, the ride vendors are busy at the moment. I think that they have like an 18 to 20 month lead time, some of them two and a half years at the moment. So again, it depends on the lead time of the manufacturing. So I think, you know, for a smaller setup, you could probably get something open if you owned that land.
I'm just, this isn't the ideal situation that you own that land and you have your funding so you have all of those, the two most important things, then obviously you can probably get something open five to six thousand square meters. I would say two and a half to three years if you're doing a park like, let's talk about something big like ING World Adventures. Let's talk about, you know, something of that scale or which we, you know, which we both worked on. So. IMG World Adventures, you know, again, a huge theme park. I mean it's, it was, it's the largest indoor theme park in the world until Sea World opened on Abu Dhabi last year. That took four years to open. So, you know, again, IMG did an absolutely incredible job of building one of the first theme parks in the uae.
It was, it was open before Dubai parks and resorts opened. So they had a big amount of education to do the government about the infrastructure, you know, actually having these facilities. So, you know, these things can take four to five years. A license agreement for a park of that scale, depending on how nice the person is you're dealing with and how good your lawyers are. I think you could have a licensed agreement done within six to nine months. But you know, within that period, again, depending on who you work with, there might be an MOU before you actually get the license agreement where you would have to hit a certain amount of KPIs. So it's. I try to answer that in the simplest way possible, but there's no rate cards for this business, which is actually why I love it, by the way.
Right.
It's not like this is how we do things. Like the business is flexible. You know, license agreements have to work on both sides. So, you know, if a licensor charges a licensee too much money, then the licensee isn't going to feel any benefit from that. They just kind of feel very, you know, a bit begrudging towards the licensor and therefore they're not going to have any money to reinvest into the park. And then the park starts looking tired because they've got this big high license fee. Then you go to the other side where, you know, for the license for the licensee, where you want to give them a financial model which is fair. So, you know, during the build phase, they have a construction, you know, it's a construction period. And within that all they're doing technically is paying for the license, licensors rights.
But again, I think that I'm quite a nice person to negotiate with. I think there might be other people out there who could do it a bit tougher than me. I've always been quite fair. So I think, you know, it works on both. It's a negotiation, it's a dance.
So yeah, from what I'm hearing from that answer is that there's no quick wins in this space. And that's why if you're wanting to, you know, be in this space, finding the right IP is so important and not focusing just on what's the hottest kids brand right now, what's the hottest film franchise right now. You have to be, you know, where is the puck going? You have to be where what's going to be popular in four or five years time and have that long jeopardy.
And I, and I also think, you know, as A licensee. If you're going into this business, you know, with a fresh as fresh and you know, you haven't been into this space before and negotiated with licensors, it really does benefit to work with somebody who has done this and who knows how to negotiate it. Because although those people can sometimes look expensive, they will save you if not millions of pounds in the future. So if you negotiate a license agreement in the right way in the future, it will work out much cheaper for you. So I think, you know, thinking that you can just do it and it's not that hard. It is hard.
You know, there's a way of doing it and the people, because I've been one of these people who sat on the license or desk, you know, there's a way that you can navigate around a contract to make sure that you're getting revenues from every area. But it's also works on the other side, you know, where you can push that the IP owner to get more out of them. So I think that it's a, it's.
It'S a dance on both brand approvals. So you know, once a license is signed, it's not a matter of like, oh okay, here's the license. Now you can do whatever you want with our ip. No, there is a very strict approval process for product development approvals so forth. Can you take us through that in a bit more detail?
So look, you know the first thing we always have a brand bibles which are great. So you know, we're where we can pass those over to our clients. Hopefully if you have a very good license agreement, you would had approval over the design firm and that they're working with a great design firm which will make your life much easier. So you know, pgav Falcons fork, you know, these guys, they've worked in with brands forever. So you know, you work with these guys, they understand how precious brands are. They, I'd say nine times out of ten they've probably worked on that brand already. So I think finding, you know, a design firm who's used to working with brands is really approvals process internally. Now that's interesting. So again it goes, it's all about the company setup.
You know, it's all about the resource that you have. So you know, smaller companies are probably not going to have a dedicated team to run these approvals. Bigger companies will probably have a huge team running these approvals. So you know, I think making sure that you're aligned internally on the, on the execution of the brand, and you have full approval over everything. I mean, from my experience, you know, any contracts that I worked on, I always made the agreements where you'd have to purchase rides from Europe or the U.S. so, you know, because we knew that those rides would conform to certain health and safety standards and that they would be a safe ride for our guests. And then obviously from that perspective, you go down to kind of like the merchandising.
So again, you know, there's always going to be a great team in place to support with the retail range plan. Make sure that you have everything from the pocket money spend all the way up to kind of like the collectibles. But the, you know, the approval process is long. You know, it's not kind of like having a. A pad, you know, if you sign it, or an Easter egg where you can approve the design of the Easter egg, it goes off to manufacturer and then you know, the distribution goes into the supermarkets and it looks after itself. You just buy it. This is a continuous. This is continuous journey. So, you know, it really is kind of like bringing up a child, you know, building a theme park, you know, nurturing it all the way to sustain and maintain, really.
And of course, it doesn't stop once it's live, does it? There's more work to do after that.
Always, you know, you have to maintain the visitation. You know, how do you maintain repeat visitation? You know, how do you. How do you get new visits, how do you maintain, you know, good TripAdvisor reviews? You know, all of these things are really important. And that's why I always. It's always very dangerous when brand owners overcharge for their brand because, you know, they. You need to let these parts invest money into new attractions, new zones, new collaborations, you know, all of these things to make sure that the park is profitable and successful.
One thing I think that those listening will want to know, given your experience in this space and you've worked in a lot of areas within the LBE arena, is there a specific project that has really, like, changed how you approach lbe? And was there anything that you can share about what it taught you?
Yeah, look, I think Ferrari for sure was, was a change for me. You know, we spoke about kind of the luxury brand. Even though I think all brands are precious, Ferrari arguably is probably the number one brand in the world. Sort of between Lego and Ferrari, tend to fight for the number one position. So I think going into a brand with that power was probably made me, I would say, more cautious. Obviously, when you have a Brand like Ferrari, where you have two different demographics. So you have, you know, the Ferrari owners, these guys know the brand. You know, they're die hard Ferrari fans, they own Ferraris, they have collections of Ferraris. And then you have the other side, which is the more aspirational.
You know, they want to own a Ferrari, you know, they follow Ferrari, they love to look at Ferraris, you know, so you know, all you have two different, very different demographics of people who still want to come to the attraction. So you need to make sure that both of these demographics are having a great time. If you're working with a media brand, you have one demographic and that's just somebody who just loves a show, they love a movie. Right? So this is, for me, this is the major difference.
So how do you do that? How did you, how do you create an experience that benefits the Ferrari owners but also benefits the aspirational Ferrari fanatics? Is it different experiences or just trying to find the same experience that services both of these types of people?
It's a really, it's a really good question. Again, I can give Ferrari World as an example. So Ferrari World, you know, full of great attractions, you know, loads of amazing intamin roller coasters. But what we, what also was at Ferrari World was we used to, when I was in, when I lived in Milan and Maranello, which is the, obviously the headquarters for Ferrari, we had the museums and in order to, you know, have new visitations the museums, we would have different pop up exhibitions about focusing on Ferrari and fashion, Ferrari in the 60s, you know, Ferrari blah. So once we'd done these pop up exhibitions, we would then take them to Ferrari World.
So there would be this kind of element of a museum within Ferrari World where people, you know, the people who wanted to really go and see the, you know, the history of Enzo Ferrari, you know, really feel the brand rather than the speed and the entertainment side would still have that feeling. So I think that, that's, that's an example of how we worked on it at Ferrari, I think for sure.
So as an example of really both the aspirational person and the Ferrari owner would both go there and enjoy because they're seeing the history of the brand that they love so much.
Yeah, and the cars, you know, so like you could even look at the demographics who are visiting the Ferrari Museum, you know, some people just be driving past and think, oh look, there's a Ferrari museum. Well, let's go and have a look. They'd probably Whiz around that museum in about 30 minutes and you know, ooh, and are at all the cars and that would be the end of that. And they'd buy some Ferrari merchandise and go on their way. Then you have the, the fans who have planned this trip, right? They plan their food trip around Modena. You know, they planned how, what they're going to do. And these guys will spend hours in the museum reading everything, you know, photographing everything. You know, they're on their phones, they're looking at the cars, they're looking at who was racing.
You know, they're taking their photo with every single car in there. You know, so there's a, there's, you have to cater for both audiences, but you do it in a subtle way so that you know, you, there's interactive elements in the museum which kids can touch that. A kid comes in, they see one red car and then they're kind of a bit like, oh, more red cars. So you know, you have to keep the interactiveness going. So you know, there's things that they can touch as they go around. They can feel the steering wheels, you know, it's just, you know, change a tire on an F1 car, you know, try their, try them, try out driving in a virtual Ferrari, you know, all of these kind of things. So it's making sure that there are subtle nods to the luxury, to the brand.
But ultimately, you know, these are still entertainment facilities.
Let's look ahead to 2026 and beyond. What trends are you watching most closely in the intersection of licensors and location based entertainment?
I think, I think, you know, the U.S. they do parks great. They have done for years. They're quite oversaturated with theme parks. The U.S. i think that there'll be more high touristic destinations popping up around the US I think the, I'm very interested to see what happens in the Middle east, particularly Saudi Arabia, because I think that it's fair to say that most licensors have probably got a contract signed there now. So let's see how many of those actually get open. I think it's an interesting market to watch. I think again, China was a good learning, you know, a few years ago China was booming and now, you know, I think the location based entertainment business in China is very challenging to work on. So I, I, that's kind of what I look at from a territory perspective. I think from a trend perspective.
Again, I'm going to go back to competitive socializing. I Love these attractions. They're scalable, they're interactive, they make people come out of the home. You know, they. They guarantee return visitation because people want to beat their top score. They want to go there with their mates and beat their mate score, you know, So I think competitive socializing is a big one for me. I also am a big fan, and I've only seen a couple of examples of it done really well of interactive food and beverage. So I think that, you know, we've seen successes with. With the. As I Go, the Eminem store. Right. But I think the interactive food and beverage where, you know, secret cinema, do one with, you know, you watch a movie and you kind of. They align the movie with the food that you're eating.
You know, I think that this kind of experiences is what people are looking for now. Generations have changed. You know, when you and I were young, were just very happy to maybe go down to the pub or if were. If we got money, we'd save up to buy something. Right. We'd buy. Whether it be a toy or a handbag or shoes or whatever you would want to buy something. The generations we have now, they don't want to buy that. They want to have an experience. So I think, you know, focusing on how you can drive experience through in a subtle way by going out on a Friday or a Saturday night, I think that's really interesting. Hotels, definitely hotel resorts. We've seen successes with the Nickelodeon hotels, Monopoly hotels. So I think that's a space to watch with results.
I think that was the area where a lot of IP owners were most cautious about. But I think that there'll be a lot of themed hotels on the way. I'm working on a few at the moment with some of the brand owners, so I think that's kind of quite a hot. A hot spot to watch as well. That's quite the opposite. That was quite a big answer.
Yeah. No, a lot to take in there. I mean, the only thing I was thinking of, particularly when you talk about food experiences, was thinking, like, if there was a Vegemite experience in Australia, well, you go. You go to the Marmite Experience, I'll go to the Vegemite Experience and we can compare notes. But my.
We did have a mum, which, remember, we did actually have a Marmite Vegemite taste off you. And I was once.
I don't remember what was the. Was it that I was giving you Vegemite and you were giving me Marmite?
Yeah. And then we had to guess which Was which we both guessed correctly and we both agreed that, you know, Marmite was better, but you agreed that Vegemite was better, so.
Yeah, as expected. But I actually still really like Marmite up in my kitchen. I do have Marmite and I do have Vegemite as well.
Well, I love Marmite. Big thumb.
Marmite's my emergency. If I run out of Vegemite, then at least I've got.
Got something that takes something there. Well, you know, like, I mean, you know, you talk about Marmite, I mean, this is going a bit of peace with lbe, but, I mean, what Marks and Spencer's. The collaboration that they're doing at the moment with Marmite Mac and cheese balls, Marmite pizza, Marmite Mac and cheese. I mean, you know, like, it's. It's an incredible brand. Marmite.
Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm getting really. It's coming up to my lunchtime. I'm getting really hungry. Just speaking about that. So now that you're running your own consultancy, Bella, tell me, what kind of things are you finding that you're able to do that you weren't able to do in previous roles?
So, obviously, I can now go on the licensee side. I've always been representing mega companies, you know, so my job has obviously always been to sit one side of the desk, but sitting on that side of the desk has now allowed me to hopefully also support the other side. So I feel like. To sound like Darth Vader, like, turning to the dark side, but. Or turning to the light side, I should probably say. So, you know, I can now support partners with. With those licensors agreements, finding the best brand, looking at the feasibility, you know, working with the design firms, you know, sourcing the best design firm for their project, you know, so that. That's kind of something that I can definitely do now. Raising capital is.
Is a new area for me, but there were so many times where I was sitting in these roles where I would be talking to some very wealthy kind of, you know, prince of blah, and they'd be like, oh, you know, we'd have you got anything? And of course, you know, within those roles, I could never, ever say, oh, yes, why don't you go and speak to X, Y, Z. Now I can. So now I can help these companies working with a couple of major sports. Sports brands at the world at the moment to help them raise capital. So, you know, now I can do that as well. And the most important thing is I could get a dog, which I'VE never been able to do.
But why, so why does that mean you can get a dog now?
My work life balance has, is so much better. You know, I've done 20 years, you know, at Ferrari, I worked out, I was doing around 120 flights a year. So, you know, these jobs are, they're big, they're traveling. I can do most of it now from home. I'm very happy to travel and I need to, but I now have a life where I can. I have a work life balance which I don't think I've had for quite a long time because I've always kind of, you know, been. I was definitely more of the slave to my job, whereas now I'm, I'm more on my own terms. And I guess that also comes with you're the boss, so you set your own strategy, you know, so in everyone knows. Right. It's no secret. It's not just companies that I've worked for, it's all corporate companies.
There's always politics within those companies. When you work for yourself, you know, there are no politics because you don't allow there to be politics. And if, you know, you, I get freelancers in occasionally to help me with design work, you know, there are no politics. So I think that, you know, that automatically makes 40% of your day go. I think 40% is probably, if you ask most corporate people, they would tell you that they spend 40% of their time managing politics internally.
Yeah, I mean, I've certainly found that since I started my agency 11 years ago, is that I'm very mindful of everybody's time and it does allow me more flexibility. You know, we're a remote first company so we don't have to worry about commuting. We try and not get bogged down internal meetings and those kinds of things. And that really help. I mean, it must be so exciting for you. This is obviously an area that you're really passionate in and has been, you know, the biggest part of your career. And now suddenly the scope of location based entertainment has grown so big because when you're working at Ferrari and Cartoon Network, they were amazing brands, but you just, you're just focusing on that. Whereas now, you know, the scope is enormous.
Yeah, yeah. So look, you know, I'm under NDA, so I'm not allowed to say it on a podcast, but you know, I'm representing some fairly big brands at the moment in terms of licensors capacity and helping them roll those brands. Out and sourcing partners for them. That's, that's massively exciting for me, you know, that I can kind of like work with different areas and again, you know, apply. I've had a lot of help over the years, you know, this 20 years of learning from lots of great people. I could spend another hour thanking all of those people. They know who they are anyway, they're listening. But a lot of people have been. Have helped me through my career and I can now do the same.
You know, I'm doing a lot of mentoring on the side as well, which I, you know, I find really rewarding. And I, you know, setting up my own company has been completely terrifying because all of a sudden, and as I'm sure you know, you don't have a lawyer sitting next door and you don't have an amazing franchise management person sitting in the other room, and you don't have a content creator or a slide formatter or a pa. You know, all of a sudden I'm kind of doing everything. So, you know, it's. This is, this is a learning as well.
But it's all on you.
Yeah, it is all on you, but it's super exciting. And it's also, you know, doing it your way rather than kind of, you know, the amount of meetings that I've sat in with like, but this is how we do things. And I'm just like, yes, but this doesn't make sense to do it this way. No, but this is how we do it. And I'm like, okay, fine, but now, you know, I meant you're in a place where I can just work. You can work smarter when you work for yourself, for sure.
Well, this is, it's so exciting. I wish you all the very best for the consensus.
Thank you so much.
Where can people find you if they want to reach out?
So I, I should have mentioned that I work very closely with iapa, so I'm on the IAAPA educational committee. So I'll be in Barcelona in September from the 20th to the 25th. I'll then, of course, be IAAPA in Orlando as well in November and the brand licensors show in October. It's like trade show season for us at the moment. I'm also available on LinkedIn, so if anyone wanted to reach out or catch up or have a coffee, I prefer a glass of wine. I think it's far more civilized. But if anyone would like to meet up at any of the trade shows, then I would. I'd be happy to.
Wonderful. Great. Well, thanks, Bella, for joining us on Born to License.
Thank you so much for inviting me. I hope that was a little bit interesting anyway.
Of course it was. Thanks so much. We'll speak soon. I hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Born to License podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe. And if you're eager to learn more about licensors, I encourage you. Take a look at my course, Learn to License. I've condensed almost 20 years of learning in my licensors career to help others understand how licensors works. And as a reward for sticking around, here is a discount code for you to put in. That code is Born to license 25. I hope to see you there.
