How Gaming Became Licensing's Biggest Opportunity

Simon Kay has spent 30 years at the forefront of digital licensing, watching it evolve from simple console games to today's complex ecosystem of Roblox, Fortnite, Web3, and beyond.

In this comprehensive conversation, Simon reveals:

The Evolution Journey:

- How he became one of the first to focus on gaming licensing 30 years ago
- The progression from full game development to content integrations
- Why mobile gaming changed everything for IP owners

Current Opportunities:

- Platform breakdown: Roblox, Fortnite, Minecraft, and emerging spaces
- The gambling gaming goldmine (and its jurisdictional challenges)
- Telegram gaming and micro-content opportunities
- How brands are making millions without developing games

Strategic Insights:

- Why IP recognition drives 3X more downloads
- The difference between promotional vs. paid licensing models
- How to navigate cross-territorial licensing complexities
- Building authentic gaming partnerships vs. forced integrations

Future Predictions:

- The UGC and Web3 revolution in licensing
- How AI will transform IP management
- The "reverse merchandising" opportunity
- Why waiting means missing out entirely

Simon shares candid insights about working with major studios, the mistakes brands make entering gaming, and why the next 5 years will be more transformative than the last 30.

Essential listening for brand managers, licensing professionals, game developers, and anyone interested in the intersection of IP and interactive entertainment.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Opening Teaser: 30 Years of Gaming Evolution & Looking Like Dinosaurs
• 2:50 30 Years Ago: When Gaming in Licensing Seemed Crazy
• 5:04 Today's Digital Licensing: The Full Scope Explained
• 9:15 Real-World Examples: Lockheed Martin to The Goonies
• 14:12 Mobile vs. Console: Deal Structures & Content Integrations
• 17:38 Success Stories: Fortnite, Roblox, Stumble Guys & More
• 24:35 Roblox's New Creator Content Portal & Brand Protection
• 31:22 Advice for IP Owners: Strategic Understanding Over Dipping Toes
• 38:08 Advice for Developers: Should You Start with Marvel?
• 45:12 Online Gambling & IP: Navigating Sensitivities
• 47:42 Five Years Ahead: UGC, Web3 & Reverse Merchandising
• 50:46 30 Years from Now: Physical & Digital Worlds Merging
• 55:29 Where to Find Simon & Closing

Transcript

 We were to be looking back from 30 years ahead. We will really look like dinosaurs. 30 years ago when I first started in this, I probably was one of the first people to actually focus on games and gaming as a core part of the merchandising mix. Some people thought I was crazy players. 

 Are almost three times more likely to download a game that features IP they. 

 Recognize One of the biggest things on the Roblox platform is protection of ip. There's been a lot of piracy, rip offs, customer acquisition costs have gone through the roof. Getting an IP and doing it right and doing it well can actually now work more cost effectively and a lot of developers favor than actually spending huge amounts of money on traditional marketing. 

 If there's an IP owner listening right now who's never licensed their IP in this space, what kind of advice would you give them? Someone that's starting out, they just want to dip their toe in the water. 

 The safe route is strategic understanding. Don't wait for it anymore, you've got no time. If you're not proactive now with this space, you'll just miss it all. 

 Can you fast forward to 30 years from now? What does this world look like? Well, Did you know that players are three times more likely to download games featuring ip? They recognize that statistic is reshaping how brands think about licensing and creating massive opportunities in the digital space. Simon K from At New Media has been pioneering digital licensing for 30 years. From early PlayStation deals today's content integrations. Today he reveals how gaming became licensing's fastest growing frontier. Enjoy today's show. I wanted to share something really exciting with you. For the first time ever, I'm opening my vault of nearly 20 years of licensing experience through my online course Learn to License. Whether you're just starting out or looking to level up your licensing game, this is everything I wish I'd known when I began my journey. 

 From deal structures to finding the right license, knowing if you're ready and how to pitch like a pro. It's all there, the fundamentals that separate successful licensors from everyone else. Visit learntolicense.com and let's get you from curious to confident. Now let's jump into today's episode. Simon, here's something that I'm sure you already know, but those listening will likely be surprised to hear. Players are almost three times more likely to download a game that features IP they recognize. And that single statistic is reshaping how brands think about licensing and creating massive opportunities for licensors and developers. So today it's all about the digital side of licensing. I'm excited to talk to you, Simon, thanks for joining us on Born to License. 

 Pleasure to be here. Looking forward to answering some questions. 

 So, Simon, you've witnessed licensing evolve from traditional merchandising to digital first gaming. What do you think is the most dramatic shift you've seen in how brands approach licensing over the past decades? 

 Well, I think we can go all the way back, showing my age. We can start there, I think about 30 years ago when I first started in this, I probably was one of the first people to actually focus on games and gaming as a core part of the merchandising mix. Some people thought I was crazy. What's that all about? Why bother? For me, growing up with technology, it was just always going to be the most important thing that underpins merchandising and licensing. Everybody was migrating there. It was the in thing back then, but most people didn't recognize it. So as the generations have gone through, different technical innovation has happened. We've moved through different games console cycles because that was obviously the first thing to happen. And IP made its way onto there initially, just as game ip, you wouldn't have any other integration. 

 So as you go through the generations, whether that was Atari or Sega or whatever it might be, but then in recent decades, you've seen mobile, you've seen social applications, you've seen so many ways to communicate and exploit ip messenger and everything else. So as that's proliferated across multiple technologies, the opportunity to leverage your IP in what we can loosely call games gaming interactive media has just ballooned. 

 What was it like 30 years ago when you started what was digital licensing? 

 It was only pretty much games in the first instance. It was, I'd say PlayStation 1 was probably the first period of time when you would get game developers and publishers starting to seriously seek ip. But of course, back then that was for whole game experiences, not like where we are today with content integrations across multiple platforms within games and elsewhere. 

 But. 

 But that was the first step. So whether you had IP representation predominantly, I would say in movies, major TV shows and sports rights, those were the first things to move into the game space, driven by console games. 

 So fast forward today, when we use that sort of umbrella term of digital licensing, what is within the scope of that term? 

 It's massive. So obviously you go from like console and you could work back from, I suppose, where we are today. The most recent form of that could be in telegram. Telegram, messenger. You've obviously got other ways to exploit games in Micro content, as I've mentioned earlier, you've got the content integrations that could be vehicles, that could be weapons, that could be characters, that could be fashion. You've got worlds within which you can play games, whether that's Roblox or whether that's Fortnite or whether that's Minecraft. You have so many different ways to leverage the IP cross platform. And then of course, you've then got gambling games at the top end of the demographic, which are relevant for some of the retro IP that's been around for a long period of time. So it encompasses almost anything. Even in flight entertainment. 

 Games is a space that's grown over recent years. So wherever you go, whether it's on your watch, on your phone, on your home console, online, someone else's house, playing games together, multiple demographics, everyone's playing games. 

 So Simon, your company 18 New Media, you're really focused on this digital space. Why did you choose that over traditional licensing, consumer products, technical innovation? 

 There's always something new coming around the corner. It started with console games, then the mobile phone, then the Internet, and then all the various different applications around that. So with technology moving on constantly and with the speed of that technological development moving at such a pace over, let's say, the last 10 years, the proliferation of opportunity in that space is just so big. It's much bigger than say a T shirt or a lunchbox or a piece of bedding. Even when there's advances in eyewear or certain product categories, it just doesn't compare to the games and gaming space. 

 And do you also find that there was a bit of maybe like a red ocean versus blue ocean strategy in that A lot of people in our industry know about consumer products licensing, but not many people are really experts in space. I mean, is that one of the reasons why you focus on this? Because it's such a specialist area of the industry and you've sort of become, you know, the expert in this space. 

 I've become an expert. There's many more now than, let's say there were 20 years ago, where I would say from the position that I took and the knowledge that I gained, it was quite easy to get yourself into situations with developers, publishers, licensors and agents where you could advise and support and direct and then obviously then help with the sales process of getting licensing deals done. So there's a lot more of me now than there is. So that's why I've always wanted to be in that space and continue to because of those different matters. And a lot of people the red element of what it is and how it works across different platforms and evolutions, it's just like anything new, it's often education, it's do I know how this works? 

 And I think for a lot of people a bit of red mist sometimes comes down. Oh, I haven't got a clue where to start with that. I don't know what that technology is. I don't know what the commercial term should be. I don't know what my expectations of that licensee should be. I don't know where this product area fits within my commercial strategy. I don't know how to integrate it like I might do across traditional merchandising. So there were a lot of things like that people just didn't understand. But as time goes by that's education, including things like cross territorial gaming. 

 Can you geo block things in terms of making sure you control distribution of where different things go so you can pay different agents in different ways and all those different elements that come into consumer products, merchandise management, I think it just created a lot more questions years ago than it did answers. But the principles of how it works, as I say to anybody else, are really not hugely different to most other product categories. 

 And for someone listening that's still struggling to get their head around it. Can you give us some examples of your work? 

 Yeah, I mean obviously there's a huge load of them over the years. I mean if I go way back, I remember one of my favorite projects, believe it or not, was to work with Lockheed Martin on licensing their planes into computer games. And I remember one game developer at the time, quite a funny story said to me we don't have to pay you for the license because that's owned by the US government. And I was like no, they're a customer of Lockheed Martin. The intellectual property rights in an F22 and an F16 and a Stealth fighter and what have you are actually owned by the IP owner and Lockheed themselves. That was content integrations as well as games. I've basically done things across all platforms, whether that's mobile, whether that's console, whether that's all the way up to gaming. 

 One of my favorite gambling projects was with, I would say God, there's been quite a few. The Goonies has been incredibly popular in that space. So I've really enjoyed working in that area over the last five to 10 years. You can find great opportunities based on different genres that are popular on particular platforms. So that was pirates etc on that space. But it continues there's so many I could talk for hours. But whether it's mobile console gambling, anything in between social games, it's all great fun. 

 Why does something like the Goonies work well in gambling? Is it, is it because of the generational awareness of the brand? 

 Yeah. So what I tend to do with any client when I get involved with them, if, let's say, they're a developer and I'm supporting them with their acquisition strategy, is to understand and help them see the popularity of particular game styles within a platform. If we're going to call I gaming a platform just like console or mobile. Now obviously in that space you have certain themes that work very well, whether that's Egyptian, whether that's Irish, whether that's pirates, and yes, there is the demographical element that intertwines with that. But you can see which games monetize well from a thematic perspective. So then you can basically work through different IPs within those thematics as to which may have already been licensed, might be available, fit the distribution and the model which the developer is wanting to achieve. 

 And of course that's where that IP worked really well because it crossed all those different elements. But there's more to it. It's like every game, you can't just stick an IP on something and expect it to work. It doesn't matter what platform it is. In iGaming, it's the maths engine that's really important. And obviously if it's a console game or mobile game, a lot of that is to do with the engine and the monetization and the stickiness of all of that as well, which for anyone that wants to get into any of these spaces, don't ever underestimate research into the development engine and what makes that work. Because cross platform there's been many, many examples of very poor performing IP based games over the years. And more often than not that's not been driven by the quality of the ip. 

 It's been driven by the lack of quality of the game experience itself. 

 And are you working on projects that are mostly involved with entertainment ip or are you finding it's a mix between sports brands, corporate brands, entertainment, the whole scope of licensing? 

 I think because the games and gaming space is all encompassing now, all encompassing demographically, whether that's female, male, whether that's 40 to 60 year olds who are playing PC games or iGaming games, whether that's young women, whether that's kids, there's something for everybody across the whole spectrum of games and gaming now. So genre wise, that opens up doors for pretty much every type of ip because you could look across the whole space and you could say, well, there's a game, for example, that targets 40 to 60 year old men on Steam. It's got a horror skew to it. They've got opportunities to build microtransactions with horror IP and that would obviously fit with that demographic. Same thing if you've got fashion on Roblox or things like that at the other end of the spectrum. 

 So you can now obviously get content integrations where you can work with music artists, where you can work with sport. No matter what that is, whether that's a handbag, a hat, a T shirt, you know, traditional merchandising. Now in the game space, that's basically a complete circle. We started this conversation by talking about merchandising and where games fit in. Merchandising now fit fully in games, cross demographical and cross genre and basically open to anything. You've just got to really understand about how that works. 

 So let's go into the gaming side of things a bit more. What's the difference between working on a mobile game version versus a console and PC in terms of maybe how deals are structured or how you would approach something like that? 

 So the first thing is, more often than not, what type of opportunity is it? Is this an opportunity for a whole game or is this an opportunity for a content integration? And that's generationally how everything has changed. You go back 20 plus years ago, everything was game driven. The only way to get your product found or get up in app stores or to get to retail distribution, was to basically make a whole game, get it in a box, stick it on a shelf and make sure that works. Whereas now with content integrations versus whole games, building a whole game these days, it was expensive a long time ago, but it's really expensive now. 

 So the barriers to entry across most platforms, when you bring into consideration the cost of development, plus the cost of marketing, the cost of customer acquisition, they've all gone through the roof. So that means content integrations have become so much more popular in recent years with the decline in the games industry. It was the last industry to probably have its hemorrhaging post Covid, because obviously during COVID it was the boom industry. Everybody was moving into games because everybody was at home. But content integrations is where most of the opportunities, I would say line out and that goes cross platform. Very difficult to get a game in terms of a whole experience to compete with the massive franchises that already exist. You Know, you're going to find it hard to compete in a military genre against Call of Duty. 

 You're going to find it hard in the space genre to compete against Star wars, for example, even though there are micro audiences that you can sell to in certain demographics. But for the content integrations cross platform, I touched on them earlier, they're easier to do. So instead of actually building a contract for a whole game that might be three to five years in length, you've got the development time, which can be 12 to 24 months. Content integrations, you can put contracts together that probably don't have a period of no more than maybe 12 months, but sometimes with an active window of maybe three months, sometimes only 30 days, it's much easier to create a piece of content to drop into a game experience, no matter what platform that's on. And it's a much quicker turnaround process, both contract wise, development size, approval wise. 

 All of that is so much quicker with the content integration. So that's why you're seeing this proliferation of partnerships and collaborations across all games and gaming spaces. The difference being iGaming. It's very difficult to do content integrations at that end of the spectrum yet. So there are still whole game experiences where licensing IP is relevant to the whole experience. But content integration is probably cross genre and cross demographic. What's the most popular now? 

 And content integration, we're talking about a game that already exists and they want to lean on popular IP to maybe surprise and delight existing customers while attracting new customers. What are some of the ways that they might use IP in an existing game? 

 Do you want me to run through some examples of what there is over recent time? 

 Please do. 

 That would be great. I got a mini list that I obviously put together that relate to different games on different experiences. So I'll kind of run through those. And most of those are pretty self explanatory. So in terms of major franchises on games platforms over recent times, obviously Fortnite is going to be one of those that many people will mention or understand and know about. So Marvel Rivals was a very good content integration into the Fortnite ecosystem. Performed very well. Obviously you're taking an element of fighting, battle, combat and taking those brands and that storyline into it. You know, another one that was very successful was the recent Star wars integration with the Stormtroopers and various other things that went into that environment. So that's a content integration of an example on Fortnite. 

 Sometimes that will be limited by time, sometimes that might be limited by content. So it could be there's a limited edition of a particular vehicle or a limited edition of a particular outfit. So there's examples within Fortnite. You then have other major franchises that have been really successful with a slightly different demographic, probably slightly younger with Stumble Guys who've been very successful with many of their content integrations. Demographically I would say skewing slightly younger, but their spongebob integration, for example, was very successful, did very well. 

 I played as Patrick the other day, so I'm on board with spongebob on Stumble Guys for sure. 

 And it's a wonderful experience and really enjoyable. And I think the IPs in games like that are used increasingly for customer acquisition and I think that's important to mention in terms of recent history, the ability for developers, no matter what game they have to use social media or traditional old school ways of marketing to acquire customers has actually got more difficult. So using IP that has an existing audience and then they can use that if possible get support from the ip, very rare, but does happen and from time to time the revenue model is good enough for them, then obviously that's a very good way to build your customer base by using IP to bring them to your game. So that's another reason why IPs got more popular over recent times with content integrations is because customer acquisition costs have gone through the roof. 

 So next to that, getting an IP and doing it right and doing it well can actually now work more cost effectively in a lot of developers favor than actually spending huge amounts of money on traditional marketing. Other examples, the Moomins in China, very big popular IP in China, one of the kind of, believe it or not, top 10 top 15 IPs in that part of the world, had a fantastic content integration with Sky Children of Light, which is a brilliant game in China. That's another way by which an IP can be used. Obviously there what they've done is they found a partner in a particular territory where they have significant resonance and then they found the right kind of partnership in that market. So again, that's an important thing to say in terms of a global viewpoint for licensing within this space. 

 But because it is now such a fundamental market, it should be looked at no differently than if you have the best apparel licensee in Japan for the Japanese market. There are great developers with great games that are local to particular territories. So if you have an ip, never underestimate doing the work to understand where my biggest opportunities might be, where my merchandising program is perhaps bigger than others, because off the bat if you said Moomins in computer games, many people would think, no chance. It's not a big IP in the traditional sense of the word. But within that particular part of the world and within those particular styles of games, there are opportunities for you to exploit. So always bear that in mind as well. Then you've got roadblocks. 

 It's important to talk about Roblox massive huge growing success records quarter by quarter in terms of revenue and users. I'm not going to talk about grow and garden integrations because they'll come eventually, I'm sure. But in terms of fashion, again, demographics, you've had Charlie xcs involved in Dress to Impress, which worked incredibly well. You can have storefronts in a lot of these games now. You can have retail integrations, you can do cross promotions, you can do digital sales with merchandise. So many different ways you can leverage within your strategy. And I think again, strategically for IP owners or agents, it's not just about games or gaming. As part of my merchandising mix is how I can integrate and use that to leverage my whole merchandising program, which some people are starting to do really well. 

 But I think it's still quite embryonic in terms of how you really effectively do that. Football Starting the new football season. Clash of Clans, Erling Harland. Nice idea. Didn't perform as well as maybe some might have expected. Probably not a surprise because for me it's not really the right direct fit. Probably much more of a marketing crossover than maybe a sales driven content integration in terms of the volume of Erling Harlands that are bought, if you get my drift, in terms of how that game mechanic works. So I didn't quite see that one in the same way from a a gaming perspective, but I could see it from the customer acquisition marketing perspective. And then we'll finish with Squid Game and Call of Duty. That crossover and Colab was very successful demographically. Concept everything seemed to work very well. 

 But again, not the most successful integration over recent times. But I would say very effective. 

 A quick pause here. If what we're discussing is really resonating with you're going to love what I've put together in Learn to License. This isn't just another course. It's two decades of real world licensing experience distilled into actionable strategies you can use immediately. I've worked with everyone from startups to Fortune 500 brands, and the patterns for success are surprisingly consistent. The course covers all things that you need to consider when it comes to licensing, particularly those who are just starting out. So visit learntolicense.com, your future licensing deals will. Thank you. All right, back to our conversation. Let's go back to Roblox because as you mentioned, you know, I think we should spend more time on them, what they're up to. 

 I did read the recent news about them creating this new platform which is going to make it easier for IP owners to collaborate on Roblox. Can you take us through a bit more about the announcement and what they're doing? 

 Yeah, so I think one of the biggest things on the Roadblocks platform that has been a bit of an issue, which I don't think anybody would mind me saying, is protection of ip. There's been a lot of piracy, rip offs, exploitation of IP that goes beyond what I would call fan content. Because obviously there's always that fine line between enabling fans to have fun, especially in a UGC environment that really is Roblox. And from a brand protection perspective, that's always a hard line to balance between when should we go fully in with Roblox support, with the developer support to manage our IP in that space? But of course the easiest way to manage IP in any space is if the platform owner itself puts technology and pathways in place for you to actually run that yourself. 

 Roblox is a platform because all the developers are often traditionally independent. You know, you're not really dealing with corporate conglomerates like Electronic Arts or Activision in the traditional sense of the word. You're trying to find the creators. So therefore what they've built as a bridge between IP and the creators, which we can loosely call a creator content portal, is that you'll be able to basically list your IP or elements of your IP that are available for the talented content creators to get access to. Because it's often the content creators on those platforms that have the marketplace, that have the success, that have the awareness. So it will enable IP to get closer to the most talented people, then in turn have routes to the best games within that marketplace. 

 So there's already, you know, not a huge number of them, you know, double figures still in terms of IPs that are there. But Roblox are basically putting together an approved portfolio of IPs and making those available to content creators to create content for the Roblox platform. 

 Do you think it'll be a success? 

 I don't see how it can't be a success because of the success of the platform, especially over recent times. Roblox as a platform has very sticky games and some Others that aren't so sticky. So it will be interesting to see how those colabs are managed in terms of volume and exclusivity and windows of time. I think we can jump back slightly to mobile integrations or any type of integration sometimes. For a strategic perspective for an IP owner, you might want to control the use of your IP within particular windows of time now and again. So often a content integration might be limited to 30 days, so might be limited to a week, might be limited to some cross promotion with a piece of merchandise. 

 So I think it's important to make sure that if anybody goes on a platform, whether that's Roblox or whether in the future that's Fortnight or Minecraft or whatever else comes around the corner, is to really understand what that means to your strategy. You don't really want that cannibalizing something else you might do on another platform in a particular time of the year. You might have anniversary or event or something else happening. So if managed well, then I think there's no issues and I think it's a brilliant opportunity. But I think from success on other platforms, elements of time based exclusivity or content based exclusivity do tend to work out quite well. But I like what roadblocks are doing and I think it would be a benefit strategically for many IP owners. 

 Do you think that there's any risk for IP owners? I mean, they're basically lending their IP or allowing their IP to be used by, you know, people or developers that they haven't necessarily vetted themselves, they haven't necessarily gone through the standard process of licensing IP and signing warranties and indemnities and things like that. Like, do you see there being any risk? 

 I do. I do see risk and again, I think that's on the part of the platform owner to make sure that they're putting those relevant parameters and approval steps in place to give that confidence to the IP owners. I don't think you're going to get that necessarily from the developer directly in the traditional sense of the word. I haven't yet seen a contract related to a content creator that goes via the Roblox portal. So I can't comment on what warranties might be stated in any given way. But I think if the same traditional steps are taken, whether that's asset to certain art approval process within certain timelines, release Windows control of the narrative in terms of PR and marketing, if the traditional steps are taken to make sure everything is aligned and done in the right way, I don't see why it's an issue. 

 It's often only an issue if you don't understand or you're concerned about what that might be. So that takes me back to the education point is there's always something new to be educated about in the games and gaming space. But don't be overly concerned about it, because more often than not, roughly the parameters and structure of approvals and everything else that goes with it roughly follow the same pathway. I think the difficulty with a lot of the new platforms and the requirement for UGC to enable the audience to be able to be creative, to do things with IP that gets more popular, because obviously on the Roblox platform, it's not just all about what you're given, it's about what you can do with it. 

 So I have seen a few examples that are concerning with regards to where that IP goes and how it is used, because Roblox is technically a free environment, so that still is a slight concern. But it's, and it's very difficult to put all your IP or part of it onto Roblox without understanding the UGC element and where those parameters might be for you and what's comfortable or not. 

 If there's an IP owner listening right now who's never licensed their IP in this space, what kind of advice would you give them? Someone that's starting out, they just want to dip their toe in the water. 

 I think the first thing for anybody is dipping your toe in the water. I'm always very wary about depending on who you are and what your objectives might be. The safe route is strategic understanding. Where does this whole space fit within your overall merchandising strategy? Do you understand what it can bring to everything that you're doing? How can a given platform give additional opportunity to what I'm doing? What are the things I need to be careful of if I go onto a particular platform? So I think strategically that's always been the biggest thing. And I've had that recently where I've done a bit of work with a few IPs and they want me to go out and sell their ip and my first port of call is, do you know what you want to do? 

 Because you could end up in situations that you don't understand. You know, I might be able to educate you to a degree, but you know your IP better than anybody. You really need to spend a bit of time understanding the different platforms and where that can take your ip. So dipping your toe in. I'm always very cautious with regards to that. Dipping your Toe in also is dependent on where your IP is in its life cycle. 

 If you're dealing with something that is a classic, you know, that's got 30 years of awareness with the demographic and let's say, I don't know, it's military or horror or something else, and you're going into the 40 to 60 year old male demographic on a PC game on Steam and they've got a very successful game engine that's monetizing really well anyone to drop in a piece of IP from a classic movie that would work for that audience. That dipping of a toe, completely fine. So it really does depend, you know, dipping your toe. If you've got a vehicle brand and you've never gone into licensing before, dipping your toe in, go to ea, have a conversation with them. Safe. Do you see what I mean? 

 You know that you're going to be treated in a balanced, fair way and your IP will be valued in proportion to everything else that's on that platform. It's well known they're a credible company. So dipping your toe in, hopefully I'm explaining that right, is relative to who you are, what your brand is and where you're going to put your toe. 

 And what are the benefits? Is this all about money or are there other benefits to license your IP in this space? 

 So money is important to many people and it's the first drive for a lot of people to get into the space. Many people would think that money is some kind of safety net. Well, if I get paid a decent amount of money for this, it kind of seems to warrant the risk. Bad place to go really. You should be looking at collaborations, you should be looking at events, you should be looking at maybe birthdays, anniversaries and things like that. There's a lot of ways in which you can build opportunity that isn't just financial. And I would stress to exploit the opportunities that are growing and proliferating immensely is to really think about not just a marketing perspective, audience generation, new audience acquisition. 

 There's so many other elements within just say the marketing mix in the traditional way of where you can actually use and leverage computer games across all your licensees. You know, there's often been situations with merchandising where you get your licensees together and everybody has a good chat about how they can maximize opportunities together across retailers, etc. You can do that in games and gaming. If you get that right and you get the distribution and the time slots together, you can do some brilliant things that aren't necessarily just driven by the Primary revenue, which is obviously, how many units am I going to sell of that game, or how many units am I going to sell of that microtransaction within the game? 

 It can be, how can I leverage this opportunity to sell more of my plushie or whatever else it might be, you know, codes, cross promotions and all of that. So, again, it's a strategic perspective. Some people, it's money, but I would advocate to look for those strategic opportunities. If you're an active IP as opposed to, I don't know, something that's slightly older, a retro IP may not work in the same kind of way. 

 I guess another thing to consider for IP owners that are not familiar with this space, but they're kind of looking into it, is that they need to have bandwidth or resource to actually support the project as well, how much work is involved from an IP owner? 

 So you can break that down again, in a traditional sense of what's the process that you go through when you license rights to any other product manufacturer? Just start there, have the conversations, discuss where the opportunity is, what assets you have, what's your approval process? There are certain differences in terms of submissions. You'll get a game design document or something like that at the front end to be able to liaise and go through what those main opportunities are and how the product is going to work. Then you'll move on through the process and you'll have regular calls, regular video submissions. All of that content can go through the traditional approval portals that most IP owners and agents have. So a lot of developers are quite happy to work with traditional backend systems. 

 And if you haven't got access to the software to play the demos as such, because you will need that from time to time. But don't be scared of it, you don't have to over everything. A lot of those submissions will be art driven, video driven, ideally, eventually playable demos. But then again, you've got to have someone that understands games from a playable demo perspective. So I think that's the only query that often comes across is, do I understand how this game plays? What is a good playable experience for my ip? So that's one that every IP owner would have to look at and understand. But in terms of all the other elements, you can mirror it to a traditional process nine times out of ten. 

 So let's flip it to the other side. We talked about the IP owner or the licensor, let's talk about the licensee. If someone's listening right now and they've never licensed anything before, but they're eager to get into that space. What kind of advice can you give them? 

 I would again start with the same as I did the other way around. It's strategic and understanding. Now in this way it's different. I have to understand my own game, my audience, my monetization, the lifespan of that product. Is it a whole game? Am I looking at content integration? Do I have the ability to focus on that? Is always one particular question. Because I always say for anybody to go into licensing, you don't really want to graze it, you want to build credibility and build it. So you really need to have a pathway and that could be product specific or that could be multiple products. You might have within your portfolio a bunch of games that might be monetizing very well. If again, we've touched on certain content integrations. 

 If you've got games that have vehicles or weapons or fashion or whatever, it might be understanding what it is that you want to monetize and making sure that you have the audience that is there ready to monetize. So what is your proof of concept that you have that? Because the first thing, even though we touched on a moment ago that money isn't always the first thing that every licensor asks for, we can't deny that it's up there as being one of the top two. So you're going to have to be able to demonstrate how you're going to make that a success. 

 So whether that's in game and the monetization flow or whether that's your marketing and how you're going to drive that out to the audience is really important because many developers, if they've never done it before, will often fall foul of thinking that this is a partnership in a shared marketing cost perspective, so that they're going to get a huge amount of social media support or whatever else it might be. So again, strategic understanding your game, understanding your audience, what the pathway is, can you make that a success and can you continue to be committed to that? Because you can't just do a drop in as a one off. It's not going to work. It's got to be continuous and it's got to be well thought through. But again, for a developer, same kind of thing. Don't be afraid of the process it really is. 

 Acquiring IP and going through that process is nothing different than if you're going through developer approval with a publisher and you're submitting concept art, playable demos, et cetera. So really you're just mirroring, if you're not publishing direct and you need a publisher or a distribution partner, you're just proving the same thing. So those pathways again are really not hugely dissimilar. I think the biggest thing I can advocate for this space is whether you're acquiring or whether you're selling is not to feel like the process is a burden. It's very similar and quite easy to follow. 

 So if a developer has decided, yes, I want to be in this space and we feel like Marvel is the best way to go, do you have any advice on those that are thinking, let's go straight to the top, let's go to the North Star, which is working with Marvel, or do you think developers should actually try and get into this space with maybe a license that's more accessible, that's got less sensitivities that might help them get in the rhythm of licensing first? 

 That's a size question and a distribution and who you are question. I think from the outset, I think no brand should be a non target. There's no problem with that. But set your expectations on where your franchise is. If you're the biggest franchise in a particular platform, genre, space, audience, whatever it might be, then you can open your parameters very wide. You can have a AAA Marvel conversation. If you've never done licensing before and you're a AAA product because they want those partnerships, they want to be having those conversations and doing those licensing deals. At the other end of the spectrum, if you've never done it before, I would say don't waste your time. In the first instance, if you're small and you haven't really thought it through, the dipping your toe in the water is the right thing to do. 

 But strategically, if we take the genre of space, I mean, you mentioned Marvel, but let's go across Disney to Star wars and the developer says, I want to do a Star wars integration, but they're not AAA in terms of distribution, revenue, audience, etc. Then they should take some time, whether that's with consultancy or with support, to basically go deeper into that genre. You know, what is my audience? What are the monetization opportunities within my game? Is it a case that they have to do a whole level? Could I do a fashion? Could I do a weapon? Could I do a different kind of integration? So if that's the case, then within the space genre you can start to have conversations about alternatives. So obviously demographically that will vary depending on what your target audience is. 

 But again, because I'm a 50 year old male, I'll just throw it out There that within the space genre, if you were to take it as an example, you could basically throw in Star Trek, you could throw in Battlestar Galactica, you could throw in a whole bunch of very cool space ip. You could even do some NASA badges, you know, which would be pretty cool if you've got a fashion angle within a particular game that might work in a Roblox environment. You know, there's all sorts of different ways you can do things. But expanding out what space means as a genre within that game to multiple different types of IPs. So whether that was Star Trek and spaceships, it may be that I've got a game that's monetizing well with my audience and I've got spacecraft. 

 And yes, of course I'd love to have the Millennium Falcon or a TIE fighter or whatever it is in my game. But actually is that the best place to start based on where I'm at? That should be the ultimate objective. But let's come down a level. Maybe I can get in contact with cbs, Paramount, Viacom, whatever you want to call them these days and have a conversation about the Star Trek universe. Because I know that they're much more amenable to opportunities that generate revenue but keep the franchise alive. So you get these different perspectives at different levels. So think about it, look around. 

 If you want to go triple A, first thing you're going to be asked about is revenue, audience distribution, prove your monetization, all the credibility, everything that anyone who ever goes after a AAA ip, they're going to be asked a lot of hard hitting questions before they get anywhere there. But in space, as that example, a lot of other things you can have conversations about. 

 Let's shift gears to online gambling. You mentioned this before and this is a really sensitive space gambling. Working with ip. How are IP owners tackling this category? Given the sensitivities here. 

 I think again, generationally, that depends on the ip and that depends on whether it's a live ip. Now what I mean by that is you could have retro IP that is old and it stays old. You could then have IP that is retro, but it's coming back. There might be a new movie, there might be a new TV series, there might be sensitivities about that from a corporate perspective. There are also depending on where you are in the world, there are sensitivities with regards to jurisdictional rules. If you're in North America and you want to do online gambling over there, for example, you're limited by states. It's not a completely open market yet. 

 So if you're looking to exploit your IP in that part of the world, you're only going to generate significant money from the online space if you get the right distributor who has the right approvals from the relevant jurisdictions within those states. If you're elsewhere in the world and obviously online gambling is more approved. So a lot of European countries, not all of them, it's a, you know, you've got to be very careful with where those are. So I think for an IP owner, depending on where you're whether it's online or land based gaming and gambling, again strategically is the first question is how important is it to protect my IP from going into particular spaces. 

 And a lot of the time gambling falls into the same bucket as if you're concerned about violence or other connotations, you know, within games and gaming, gambling doesn't matter what the space is. So strategically that's a question for everybody to think about is it right to go into that space? Then where is it the right place to go in for my ip? I'm going to have to do my diligence when I talk to a potential partner that they do have geo blocking technologies and the right things in place to make sure that my IP doesn't suddenly appear in a country where it's to all intensive purposes illegal and it can bring your brand into disrepute. So I think that's the biggest concern worry management decision that anybody often has to make with online gambling is that jurisdictional point? 

 Let's look ahead, say five years from now. Simon, what licensing trends in gaming do you think that you're most excited about? 

 I'm personally excited about the growth of UGC and Web3 and where that takes everything. Now obviously NFTs are a very difficult word and have been for a period of time purely because of what they are. But that from a games and gaming perspective, experiences that move from Web two into Web three and integrate very well, not just from a monetization perspective and using different cryptocurrencies which are going to grow. Don't be completely against the world of crypto. I know it's a hot potato, but it's not going to disappear. So understanding what cryptos might work in the games and gaming space for particular transactional reasons is quite interesting. Obviously UGC isn't going to disappear. So from a strategic perspective for any IP owner, have a plan, you know, how do I view user generated content? 

 Do I want to set up some restrictions or some parameters that I'm happy for my IP to be used, evolved. Who then owns that IP from a user generated content perspective, you know what happens if some creator makes something amazing in a game that's so, so hot and popular? How can I get access to it to merchandise it out of the game? And maybe someone creates an amazing bag or hat or jewelry or watch and you think, wow, you know, this is so popular, they're all buying it, they'll buy the other thing in the real world. So I think you've got this very exciting reverse inverse process from creativity that actually drives merchandising opportunity. So a combination of those is really interesting. 

 I think ownership of digital assets will continue to grow and what that means every IP owner needs to have a strategy with regards to what's the right amount of money I should get from someone reselling an asset in a web3 space with my brand on, if they haven't thought that through. So this isn't just about games and gaming, it's about reverse merchandising, if I can call it that. And it's also about the proliferation of digital assets and how comfortable different IP owners are with their IP going into that space. And I think the biggest piece of advice I could give anybody is don't wait for it anymore. You've got no time. If you're not proactive now with this space, you'll just miss it all. Because it's not like it was 30 years ago with console life cycles. 7 to 10 years. 

 Here comes the next one. We can be ready, we can be planning, off we go. This is like weekly. Now that there's potentially a new opportunity that I should be thinking about across all the different angles that we've been speaking about in this call. 

 We talked about you starting out in this space 30 years ago. Can you fast forward to 30 years from now? Like what does this world look like? 

 Well, I definitely won't be involved in it. That's the first. No, no, I won't be involved in it. But I think with AI and UGC and all these different anachronyms and watchwords that are being thrown around like PS1, PS2, Xbox, whatever were 25 years ago or so, that in terms of how it's going to look, there won't be the same agency, lawyer structure that exists today. It's going to be a very fast moving space, you know, so from a consumer goods perspective, fmcg, if we use it as a reference point, will be taken to a whole new level, whether that's AI driven, UGC driven, Web3 and ownership driven. It will be happening so fast that if were to be looking back from 30 years ahead, we will really look like dinosaurs. 

 You know, if you look 30 years back in my lifetime doing this, it feels a bit dinosaur esque. But in 30 years time it'll be a completely different world. It'll be so fast, it'll be happening so quick. The driver of revenue generation will be the community, not the business itself. 

 I do imagine in 30 years time there'll be significant overlap between our physical and digital worlds. Like we'll be, there'll be technologies that don't exist that will completely change the way that we do things. I mean there are things now on iPhone didn't exist 30 years ago and that completely revolutionized everything that we do and how we behave and everything like that. So something like that will exist. It probably won't take 30 years to get there. It could even be in five years time where we're just completely. Our world completely changes. And I think that IP owners that are in the digital space today are putting themselves in the very best position to adapt for whatever lies ahead tomorrow. 

 I think so. And a lot of them are doing very well with that thought process and I think demographics help with that. I think, you know, you're younger than me, David, and you're in a space where you've evolved with that technology. I think going back to when I started, I was the first generation of many who grew up with this tech and it was like, oh, really cool. What could we do with this from a merchandising and licensing space? How can we get educated with it? Whereas now it's completely different. So you're right and I think the combination of everything that we've spoken about, even to just walking down the street, it's already different. 

 If you've got your Google glasses or whatever it is that you want to use and you could see different things around you can go into a different store, you'll be able to walk into that store and there won't probably be any traditional human beings that you'll just walk across it. It will pick up that you've gone into that store, you put your glasses on, you're like, hey, there's a cool T shirt. I want to get that both to wear now. And I want that in my game experience. So look at it will show you what that will look like in your game. Just like that. Buy both versions. 

 So not only can I look cool when I go out and see my mates, just to go socialize I can also immediately go home or from that point in time, upload it for an extra three bucks. T shirt might cost me 16.99. Well, you know, for 19.99, why don't you own the virtual version as well? And you'll see it there and then you could almost see it in your game. You can go and grab a coffee and then you can play it immediately. 

 After you're twinning with yourself, you're swinging with your online avatar, all that kind of stuff. 

 And then if I can then change it or adapt it, and I can have an option where the licensor has basically enabled you to have certain parameters where you can change it, move the logo, add different things, you know, change certain elements with it, make it look even cooler. They may, well, as some of them already are, they become the future design team by being active in the game environment and then returning that back the other way. And with the right connections and distribution and planning, you as an IP owner might suddenly have someone doing print on demand through your official print on demand supplier, creating new content and distributing it all over the world for you within seconds. 

 This has been a really interesting chat, Simon. If people want to connect with you, where can they find you? 

 So you can email me Simon tnewmedia.com you can find me online there as well and you can find me on LinkedIn. So that's probably the best way to get hold of me. Or alternatively reach to David and he can share my details. 

 Awesome. Well, thanks again, Simon, for joining us on the Born to License podcast. 

 Pleasure to be here. 

 I hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Born to License podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe. And if you're eager to learn more about licensing, I encourage you take a look at my course, Learn to License. I've condensed almost 20 years of learning in my licensing career to help others understand how licensing works. And as a reward for sticking around, here is a discount code for you to put in. That code is Born to license 25. I hope to see you there.