How The Oodie Decides Which Licenses to Back

How does a brand like The Oodie go from a simple product to a global success story - and what role does licensing play in that journey?

In this episode of Born to License, we sit down with Rebecca Palmer to explore how The Oodie built a powerful brand through product, positioning, and smart growth decisions - and how licensing can become a key lever for scaling brands like this even further.

While The Oodie is known for its rapid growth in e-commerce, this conversation goes deeper into the strategic opportunities around licensing, brand expansion, and long-term value creation.

In this episode, we cover:

• The origin and growth of The Oodie brand
• What makes a product scalable in today’s market
• How strong branding creates licensing potential
• When a brand should consider entering licensing
• The role of partnerships in expanding beyond core products

This episode is essential for anyone interested in licensing strategy, brand growth, retail expansion, and building scalable IP.

If you’re a founder, brand owner, or licensing professional, this is a real-world case study of how modern brands are built - and how licensing fits into that future.

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Transcript

The Oodie has become one of the most loved wearable blanket brands on the planet. What started as a single product has grown into a global business, selling around the world, including Australia, New Zealand, the uk, Europe and North America. And with that success comes a seriously impressive licensing program banning entertainment, sport and evergreen classics. In this episode of Born to License, I sit down with Rebecca Palmer, head of licensing at the Oodie, to find out how they decide which IPs to back. From big theatrical releases like Barbie and Wicked through to beloved evergreen brands like Peanuts and Miffy. We talk about how they manage license or relationships at scale, how they use data and social listening to spot the next big trend before everyone else does, and what it really takes to build a licensing strategy that keeps customers coming back again and again. 

 If you're into licensing, this one is for you. I'm David Born and this is Born to License. Before we dive into today's show, I wanted to share something really exciting with you. For the first time ever, I'm open my vault of nearly 20 years of licensing experience through my online course Learn to License. Whether you're just starting out or looking to level up your licensing game, this is everything I wish I'd known when I began my journey from deal structures to finding the right license, knowing if you're ready and how to pitch like a pro. It's all there, the fundamentals that separate successful licensors from everyone else. Visit learntolicense.com and let's get you from curious to confident. Now let's jump into today's episode. 

 Well, I think it would be really good to start with just telling you as you know, I ran the Melbourne Marathon on Sunday and I went home very slowly, very painfully and had a shower and then I put on my hoodie and it was the best post marathon experience I've ever had. Because the first marathon I didn't have the Oodie. This time I did and I literally sat on the couch in my Oodie for hours and it was bliss. 

 It's the best. 

 It was the most. So when I come here to talk to you today, I'm coming to you as a big fan of the Oodie, big fan of you, big fan of Davey and everything that you've achieved. UDI has a great range of licenses today, but that wasn't always the case and I am going to be speaking with Davey about his first license and how he approached Warner Brothers for that first time. But what I'd love to talk to you about is you know, you've got to a point now where the Oodie is such a popular brand and the whole licensing community wants to work with you. Walk me through the process involved when licensors are coming to you. 

 They're trying to pitch you this is the next big thing or you know, the film is going to be huge or they're trying to sell you on their ip like how on earth do you decide what you're going to go with? 

 Because they're very convincing too. 

 Yeah. 

 So you know, and they know and they love their ip rightly, you know, sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's like, you know, I remember talking to Barbie people Mattel about Barbie back in the day and it was really obvious from everything they were saying about, you know, the sort of investment they were making, the scale of the movie, you could see that even, you know, the high end fashion catwalks were starting to have Barbie core. You know, the hot pink was everywhere. Robbie Williams performed in a hot pink suit at the AFL grand final like good six months earlier. So some of them, you can see that, you know, okay, we can get on board with this. I think Wicked was the same. They you could see Universal very much looked at the Barbie playbook and were like, we've seen what's possible here. 

 So if we can recreate this, you know, so you can see that the licensor's putting a lot of investment into it. So that's kind of easy. Other ones are harder and we don't always get it right either. But we basically have to, you know, obviously a licensor knows their property the best. So the most important question for us is who is the fan? How do they relate to our customer base? You know, sometimes if that's like a preschool brand, for example, we don't do kids products. So preschool pure preschool products like brands like Coco Melon or Peppa Pig, much as I absolutely adore them, just don't work for us. But a preschool brand with an adult audience would. So Sesame street, because it's got nostalgia for adults and it's still relevant for. 

 Because of course those people like me who grew up watching Sestan history, now we're buying into it because we have nostalgia. 

 And when we did Squishmallows, for example, yes, it's a kid's toy, but we identified that there's a very big community of young female adults who are collectors. That's who our target audience is. So we've made our Squishmallow collection for a 20 something female, not a child. So I'm not sure if that answered the question. 

 Yeah, no, absolutely. One thing you mentioned was that, you know, the Mattel and Warner brothers together with Barbie came to you about the film and then Universal came to you about Wicked. How far in advance of the film release would a license or typically come to you to say, hey, we've got a film coming out, we'd love to work with you? 

 Well, we try. I'm trying to plan sort of 18 to 24 months ahead. So I'm working on the 2027 plan at the moment and I try and plot out the whole year and then obviously things fall over or we can't get them in every region we sell in or something happens. But I like to have it kind of loosely planned out. So the further advance the better. And some of that is them coming to us, some of it is us like just scouring social media and news and just seeing what's coming up. You know, there's a Blu Ray movie coming in 2027, there's a Nintendo movie coming next year. So it's just being aware of all those kind of milestones and really staying connected to the license source. 

 But yeah, it'll be, it's usually a long lead time and the longer the better for us. The challenge with that is it's hard to know something's really hot now. Is it still going to be relevant in 18 months, two years? Yeah, exactly. That can be difficult to know. So it's kind of part science, part hunch, part luck. 

 Yeah, yeah. We were at Disney's offices yesterday and they were talking about the upcoming slate and obviously we're talking about the Simpsons movie because that's just been announced. That'll be a big one in 2027. Toy Story. Yes. There's lots happening. 

 Yeah. 

 And so, you know, you must be dealing with licenses coming to you and saying like, this is what we've got. But it must also be really exciting for you to get sort of like an inside look as to what's happening, the development, what's happening in 2027. That's maybe not public knowledge just yet. Do you find that you like getting that kind of info? 

 Oh, it's like, look, I mean, licensing is such a fun and exciting business anyway and having that kind of insider sneak peek and as you know, when you go to a license to showcase event, you'll often see behind the scenes clips from upcoming films, you know, little snippets of Interviews with the directors or the cast. You'll see sometimes it'd be animator and it would literally be a line drawing animation of what it might, you know, that the very first kind of sketch of what the film is going to be. But they've kind of stitched it together with a bit of audio so you get a sense of it. So they really try to make sure that licensees have as much advanced notice as possible. 

 I think the challenge with us with aligning to like big theatrical releases and movies and big kind of content drops is when they change. Change dates and it doesn't happen that often. It happened quite a bit around all. 

 The writers strike and Covid. Around Covid. It happened a lot as well, didn't it? 

 Yeah. So, you know, I remember couple of years ago, you know, you could go into any store and see Snow White everywhere and then the movie didn't come out for 12 months or we'd all place their orders. We all had product, you know, on the water ready to. Ready to ship. And yeah, the movie got delayed by a year. 

 Yeah. Yeah. That can be challenging. 

 Yeah. 

 So let's talk about kind of the difference between like a theatrical release or a big moment that's coming in the future versus like an evergreen, because the Woody that I have is a Snoopy or a Peanuts Woody. I know you've also worked with Care Bears and some other sort of evergreen brands. What's the thought process behind working with an evergreen like Care Bears, like Sesame street, like Peanuts versus a big theatrical release that's coming? 

 Well, like I said, when I plot out the full year, the very first thing I look at is where the big content moments are or the big marketing moments. Because there's a big advantage to us if we can piggyback off someone else's marketing and the buzz they're creating, the excitement they're creating. And we can be part of a relevant cultural moment in pop culture right now, then obviously we'll want to attach ourselves to it if we think that's going to be a good fit for our customers. So we find that if we can align it properly and launch a few weeks prior. So when the start of the marketing of the film or whatever you know, starts and we can be part of that and we kind of ride that wave with it. We do see, you know, a huge spike interest in sales. 

 Like it just, you know, goes crazy, lasts for a while, and then it drops off again, not down to nothing, but, you know, then trickles off and that's fine. Whereas An Evergreen, you know, has. Is more of. A lot of them are like the gift that keeps on giving, you know, that they don't necessarily have that massive spike they do in the first launch, but then they just keep ticking along, 

 Like a consistent stream of sales versus like this with a theatrical release. Yeah. 

 And we'll find that if A. And Evergreen does particularly well for us, then we'll come back and do another drop and we might do it, you know, like the first drop might have been, I don't know, like an Oodie. And there's always an Oodie in the first drop and an Oodie and maybe a blanket and a sleek tail or something. And then like for, you know, we might come back next time and do pajamas or a robe or, you know, something else. So give them another reason to buy. And so, yeah. 

 What does it look like if, say, like a Barbie and a Wicked? I know that they just blew up and were just like, crazy. Probably sold out so quickly on those. What's the difference between a really successful movie and maybe a release that doesn't do well or completely flops? Like, what. What's the difference for you guys? 

 Heartbreak. Yeah, I take it personally. I really do. Like, we've. We've had. I remember we. We did one of the superhero movies a couple of years ago that, you know, and it was a big license or big backing and there were, you know, live video screens all over Times Square promoting it, and it's going to be the next big thing. And the license was said, oh, God, this is that, you know, putting all our money into this. And it just didn't do well, or it didn't do well for us. Like, you know, we eventually, you know, sold through and it wasn't a disaster, but it didn't live up to its promise. Whereas, you know, a Barbie was. I remember thinking at the time, you know, thank goodness we did it. Because I would have felt. 

 I would have felt like the worst licensing person in the world if we didn't have Barbie. Everybody else did. So. And you'd see it in retail, you know, see some shops that would color everything in hot pink but had no actual Barbie. Just trying to. 

 Desperately trying to get on. Get on the bandwagon to like, yeah, it's there. 

 So it's kind of like, I feel, you know, we. Thank goodness we. We decided to go with that. 

 Yeah, it was definitely a good choice. And Wicked was a good choice as well. 

 Yeah, Wicked's love. 

 Is there a direct correlation between a film doing well and your products selling well? 

 Oh, I think so, yeah. I think when there's a lot of buzz, when it's a big cultural moment and if you remember back to when Barbie was, I mean Barbie's like the, you know, I guess the biggest and the best of all of these. It's really kind of written the playbook. But when you look back to all the social media interviews, remember all they did, everything were like clips and it was just everywhere. 

 Unavoidable. 

 Yeah, everywhere. And no matter what you're into, whether, you know, it was, I don't know, some kind of like a really Gen Z youth oriented, you know, entertainment or you know, TikTok account through to things that apply, you know, appeal to an older audience as well. So there was something for everyone and it was just ubiquitous. It was everywhere and Wicked did the same. So that kind of attention gets people excited and then of course they want to see the film and then they were watching Pose and they had, you know, I don't know if you went to see Barbie in the cinema. 

 I did. I wore pink myself and. And everyone was wearing pink and it was event cinema and everyone was singing. 

 Along and yeah, it was fabulous. 

 It was actually exactly what the box office needed. You know, post Covid was in a really bad place. 

 Yeah. 

 I feel like Barbie breathed new life into cinema. That experience, we wouldn't have had that experience at home, you know, going and dressing in pink with complete strangers and singing along and just like advent cinema. 

 A sense of camaraderie with the crowd as well. Yeah. So yeah. Those films obviously have a massive cultural moment and we want to be part of that. 

 Yeah. 

 If it's right for our customer, which I mean those two properties are right bang on the right demographic for us. 

 So on the Evergreen front, there's a lot of Evergreen properties out there. How do you decide, like what made you decide on like Peanuts and Dr. Seuss and like those Evergreen properties? 

 Oh gosh, there's so many factors but so many questions. But you know, if they're multi generational so that they've got appeal for say anything from a teenage, anyone that could wear out or use our products right through to an older adult, that's appealing because you know, it's a wider audience for us and we're more sales. We know that something like a Peanuts or a Sesame street are really universally loved in all the territories we sell in. So that's really important to us. We typically try to stay away from. Well, we prioritise licenses which we can a get the rights to in every territory we sell in, which is Australia, New Zealand, uk, Europe, US and Canada. And then we also like no, do we need to be able to get the rights. 

 But that property has to be have a really strong appeal in each of those territories. So it's very rare that we would do a license which we can only get in say Australia. The exception to that was the AFL and NRL which are both Australian sporting codes and you know, have done exceptionally well for us, but we really haven't done anything else in Australia. Only. 

 Let's talk about the sports brands because I think that's a really interesting part of your business as well. How does it compare to entertainment? 

 We know that the afl, the Australian Football League and the nrl, which is the rugby version in Australia, just massively popular here. We know that there's an audience for it, but there's also a lot of merchandise. So the AFL was our first sports license. It's a big commitment. So the nervousness was not that, you know, there's not an audience for it. The nervousness is there's 18 teams and multiple spears times 18 is a lot. It's a huge burden on our product team. 

 Does the AFL come to the table with saying this is our most popular team, Collingwood, for example, this is our second most popular team. Essen it and help you sort of plan the volumes. 

 Well that was the other challenge is that if you get your volumes out by like 5% across 18 teams and multiple SKUs, it could be hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars of. 

 Inventory that you've stuck with. Yeah, yeah. 

 So they were good in that they could, I mean we've, we use a lot of data sources and one was like what how many members the club has, how many social followers they have? You know, all that kind of data that we can sort of research ourselves. And then the AFL was really good about sharing with us just sort of percentage splits of sales that at retail. So we knew that Colin would be the number one team by far. We knew that maybe Gold Coast Suns, which is a much smaller team and newer team, have fewer followers. Haven't got that kind of long in. 

 A state that doesn't love football as much as Victoria perhaps and is also. 

 A very warm state. 

 Yes. 

 And the majority of our products are woodies which are very winter driven and very warm. So were able to kind of quantify but we took and we took a conservative approach. So we committed to it. We did. Every team had an oodie and the top I think eight most popular teams had an outdoor jacket and we did some blankets and we did some sleep toes. But we didn't do every product in every team except the Oodie. So that was kind of a way to try and manage it. And then were kind of careful on the quantities first time around and we'd rather kind of sell out and reorder than be left with, you know, what could be tens of thousands of. 

 Yes. 

 Of stock. 

 And as far as, like, sports goes, I mean, with afl, I'm guessing that maybe you're. You do have a little bit of peak maybe before the season starts. People are buying the product. 

 Yeah. 

 To get geared up and excited about the season. 

 Yeah. And we did. I mean, it was our biggest marketing campaign at the time, actually. We did. We invested a lot in getting some really great photography of people in at Woody's cheering on their team doing all that. So it was fantastic campaign and we launched a good four weeks before the start of the season and then kind of rode that interest and buzz about the new season beginning. And then as the season went on, the sales started tailing off towards, you know, coming up to Grand Final time. People's teams are, you know, getting out. If they wanted Nuri for their team, they've probably already got it. 

 Do you find, like, leading up to the Grand Final or whoever's in the final season, do those people get a little bit more like, yes, I'm going to buy n. Yeah, a little bit. 

 But were intentionally planning to sell through by the end of the season. We didn't want to keep stock after the end of the season, so a lot of the teams already sold out and weren't restocking. We came back and did a massive restock at the start of the next season. Yeah, but it was, I mean, it was phenomenal for us. We sold. We met our MJ within the first. I'd say month. 

 Wow. 

 Four to six weeks. 

 Yeah. 

 And it was. And it was a decent MG as well. So as you can imagine with all those clubs. So, yeah, it was great. And then that gave us the confidence to come back and do the NRL the next year. 

 Yeah, yeah. 

 Which. Which had, like, very similar characteristics. 

 And so you joined the Oodie in 2021. 

 Yeah. 

 Do you think the licensing landscape has gotten easier or more difficult since then for the Ooty? Yeah, both. 

 Yeah, both. So it's much easier when your brand is really well known in the UK and Australia particularly. We're not as well known in North America. But, you know, we're getting there. That opens doors often, you know, it's amazing to walk into a meeting with a license or for the first time and they go, oh my God, I love the Oody. 

 Yeah. Then you're going, oh, the power of a brand. 

 Oh, it's so good. 

 It's so good. 

 And you know, and when you, when the brand is so beloved and so adored and people really love the product and it's a really different product that makes it so much easier. 

 So. 

 And it's a delight, you know, and it's just so lovely when you meet people and they tell you all their stories about, you know, their own Oodies or just like you did when you got here and talk about, you know, your own. So that's great. In terms of challenges, probably this is more probably a personal bugbear than anything else. But, you know, we've built this whole category of the wearable blanket and the Oodie really owns that category. But the success we've had has meant that every other discount department store and brand and E commerce business has done their own version, which is perfectly fine. But my bugbear is when they take the same license as us and then on a couple of occasions, it really doesn't happen very often, but a couple of occasions they've used the same assets as us. 

 So it looks like an identical but significantly inferior quality product to ours. And that hurts my heart. 

 So the Oodie is selling this premium product because it is the best version of that wearable blanket that exists in the market. And, and they've got this particular license. And then you suddenly walk into Kmart and you see the same design, lower quality, similar product. Similar product and a similar kind of pattern, similar style guide assets. 

 Yeah. 

 And it's. You start to think about, well, for the consumer, how do they, you know, how they differentiate. 

 Yeah, well, the different, though, the difference is our product is, you know, $100 and the quality is out of this world compared to anything else. Like, it really is a premium. That's the thing we pride ourselves on the most is we have. It's a very high quality product. But we're an online business only, so if you don't know us already, you may not know that, you may not, because you haven't seen and touched the product itself. And then they go to Kmart and see the identical, what they think is an identical Item and it's $15. 

 Yeah. You know, but I think you guys and Davey have done a really good job at sort of like, raising the profile of the quality of the Woody and kind of calling out the copycats that are much lower quality and saying, like, the woody is the original and the best, and it's the very best quality. And that's why, you know, you walk into a Kmart and you see a much cheaper product, both in terms of how much it costs, but into. In terms of, like, the fabric and the material and everything. 

 Like, that doesn't compare. Yeah, it really doesn't compare. Yeah. And we find that people often, anecdotally, we get, you know, a lot of feedback from our customers saying, oh, I bought one from, you know, wherever. Primark, Kmart, wherever, you know, and it kind of fell apart. And then I got the real one, and it's. 

 And I've had it for years, the. 

 Best, and I never take it off. And now it applies. 

 Yeah. 

 I mean, we have. We have some Woody superfans. 

 Yeah. 

 Like, it's nuts. There are people that own, like, 20 or 30 woodies. 

 Really? 

 How do they keep them in the house? Because they're very bulky, but they're. You know, we've got a. An online community, a Facebook group called Is Everywhere, and there are people on there who, like, they are super fans. 

 Yeah. 

 It's amazing that there's so much love for this brand. It's such. Yeah, it's so exciting. 

 So great. When you have, like, a new licensed product, the person that has 20 will be like, now I'm going to have 21. 

 And that's what they do. They jump on it. They jump on our socials, and they're going, oh, no, I didn't need another Rudy, but okay, I have to have one. 

 Yeah. 

 And that's also why we're, you know, diversifying our product range, too, because we started as a single product brand, you know, a lot like Crocs, and now we've diversified. You know, we're doing robes and blankets and sleep tees and outdoor oodies and slippers and all sorts of stuff. So trying to diversify out and give them another reason to come back. Because you really, you know, much as I love the people who own 20 Oodies, you probably only need one, maybe two. 

 Yeah, yeah. When. When we're talking about you go into a cheaper store and it's using a similar design, how do you approach the licensor to help them really understand the damage that's doing? 

 Oh, they understand. Yeah, they do. I mean, they. By and large, they work very hard to avoid that situation. And they really do try and actively manage and most of them actively manage so that doesn't happen because it just doesn't serve anyone well. And that wouldn't have been an intentional thing at all. It was just an oversight. So in one case, it was like a product that we'd. They brought it out and were bringing out products six months later. The licensor thought that, and they'd seen ours as well, they knew ours was coming, but we didn't want to look like we're copying, you know, a dds. So it wasn't great for us. But, you know, from the licensor's point of view, and I can see where they're coming from, they thought that the design was sufficiently different. 

 We felt that just an average person looking at it probably wouldn't really. They look too similar, more similar than they look dissimilar. And the license saw was like. But it's in Kmart in, you know, June and you're not launching till November, so you know, it'll be long gone by then. 

 But obviously it's. It's still so close, isn't it? 

 Yeah, it's too close. It's too close of comfort for our liking. So we actually chose not to launch that product in Australia when we've seen it and we launched overseas instead. 

 Yeah, okay. That's probably why. A quick pause here. If what we're discussing is really resonating with you're going to love what I've put together in Learn to License. This isn't just another course. It's two decades of real world licensing experience distilled into actionable strategies you can use immediately. I've worked with everyone from startups to, fortune 500 brands and the patterns for success are surprisingly consistent. The course covers all things that you need to consider when it comes to licensing, particularly those who are just starting out. So visit learntolicense.com your future licensing deals will. Thank you. All Right, back to our conversation. Let's dive a bit deeper into working with licensors. So you have a lot of licensor relationships. How do you, how do you manage them all in an efficient way? Like how do you continue to kind of have those strong relationships? 

 I think you'd be the first to agree that licensing is all about relationships. 

 Absolutely. 

 And relationships are built on trust. So I think the most important thing we need to do is to, and any licensee needs to do is to make sure that the licensors have trust in you as an individual. But also as a team and as a business. So that's all the boring things like making sure that your factory compliance does what you said it will do, that you have conducted the appropriate product testing that you said you'd do, that your insurance reflects what they need your insurance to reflect, that you know, all the obligations that you report on time, you report accurately, you pay on time, all those things that build trust and that you know you're going to follow the right processes and approvals and not do anything rogue or launch anything that hasn't been approved. 

 So that trust is critical in terms of managing like the numbers and the sheer volume of people we have to deal with day to day. Well, we work to a critical path within our business. So we have like licenses blocked out in a critical path 18 to 24 months in advance and we have a deadline for every single aspect of that license going right back from the date it gets shipped, the date it's in the warehouse, the date it's manufactured and working right back to when the contract needs to be signed so that it gets signed in time for product to have enough lead time to be able to do their best work. Often they're snapping at my heels, needing assets, needing the contract to be signed so that they can get started. 

 And if I'm holding them up then I'm reducing the amount of time they have, which isn't fair on them either. So we're pretty organised and we all have a cohesive critical path that we're all following in terms of the day to day kind of management. We're like a really small team here. There's only 50 people in the whole company. For a company that does a little sales, it's quite small. So each department manages their own relationships with the licensors. So I obviously look after the commercial terms, the contract. I'm kind of the primary commercial contact for the licensor. And I also look after our forecasting with input from our planning team. But then our product team when they're developing the designs and submitting for approval, they'll manage their approvals themselves. So that. 

 And they'll work with the product development teams. 

 They work directly with the license or the agency. Yeah, so they'll have that direct relationship because there's no point in me or anyone else sitting in the middle of that because I don't add any value. They're the ones that need to receive the feedback, make the change, send it back. So they're kind of very self contained in that way and they obviously we all prioritize our workloads and which licenses we need to work on according to what's most urgent, basically. And our finance team, you know, manage all our royalty reporting and our marketing team manage all the approvals and the submissions and that whole kind of process as well. And we have a, you know, Thatcher compliance team. 

 And so, you know, we all work really closely together and all across what everyone's doing, but everybody has an interaction with the license or according to their own personal speciality. 

 I think it'd be really interesting if somebody's watching or listening to this that they're thinking about, you know, they've got a great business, they're wanting to get into licensing. I think that they will listen to your answer just then and be surprised of how much work is involved and that you've got separate divisions sort of managing separate responsibilities. That's, you know, a lot of the companies that come to us and need help with licensing, I think they're really surprised with how much work is involved. Some of them just think, you know, they're going to sign the license and then they can go and do what they want. Yeah, but really, when you sign the license, you know, maybe that's 5% of the work done. The majority of the work is still to come. Yeah. 

 And do you have any advice or any tips that you would share with somebody watching this that's getting interested in getting into licensing? Like, what should they be focused on? 

 Well, like I just said, I mean, I think you've got to understand that the compliance. There's a lot of boring things that are a big overhead in terms of admin time and admin management, but they're really important. Relationships are everything. It does get easier too. So when you work with a licensor, it's easier. You know, you've built that trust in that relationship and it's easier to come back and work with them again. Say, know you and trust you. I would say, you know, if you're just getting into it for the first time, you need to, and you're trying to work out which license to choose. And like you said earlier, you know, everyone wants to go Disney or Pokemon or the, you know, the real big guys. 

 But, you know, you've got to kind of just take your own personal preferences and taste out of it. So when I'm looking at new licenses, I always try and make. Be really objective and take out the fact that I want to put Miffy on everything and go, but maybe some people are into anime, you know, that's not me. But, you know, so you've got to take your own personal preferences and taste out and really put your mind into the, put yourself into the mind of the consumer. Who is your customer and what are they into? What do they want to see from you? What aligns with your brand? What. What is going to be a really good marriage between the IP and your brand? Is it going to elevate both of you know, and what's, you know, what does your customer want? 

 And then from there, it doesn't have to be the biggest and the best and the flashiest. It could be something more niche because if you can get all of a small market that is even arguably more valuable than a little bit of a big market that everyone else is doing. So sometimes doing something niche, if it, you know, really relates well and aligns well to your brand, sometimes that can be a really great strategy. And then you might be a little bit easier to get in. You're proving yourself and then you've got a case study and then you've done some learnings and then you can go. 

 And then you can start to try and level up, work your way up. 

 Yeah, yeah. So proving yourself, because again, it's that building that trust and it's very hard to take a leap of faith on, you know, I'm thinking from a licensor's point of view on a very small organization who's never done anything before. Not that it's impossible, but, you know, at least if you can demonstrate some experience, then, you know, that all helps. 

 Yeah. We were at, with a licensor recently and they were talking about how much they enjoy working with the Born to License team because we do a lot of the heavy lifting on behalf of the licensee and most of the licensees we work with have never done licensing before. And you know, because we're sort of like taking, absorbing a lot of the workload of the licensing process, we're making it easy for the licensee, but also the licensor as well. 

 Absolutely. And the licensor. And again, it's the relationship. You've got the relationship with the licensor. So they're trusting you and they're trusting. When you say, I've got this client and you know, we're going to look after your ip, don't worry. They're like, okay, well, I trust you. 

 So, yeah. 

 That really is a great way for someone like brand new to it to get in is to either work with someone like yourself or Perhaps choose a license that's represented by an agency, because sometimes the agency, if the agency understands you and your brand, then they can advocate on your behalf to the licensor and, you know, kind of smooth that process a little bit and also guide you on what's needed without, you know, having the direct contact with the license. 

 So you would work with some agents here in Australia. I'm thinking Haven Merchandise. But then you also work with licensors locally. I'm thinking Mattel, Disney, Warner Brothers. What's the difference do you find working with a licensing agent versus a licensor? 

 Oh, it's a good question. Sometimes. Sometimes it could be frustrating having someone in the middle, like particularly a contract negotiation when there's a real sticking point and I just want to speak to the lawyer at the end. And look, it could be an agent in the middle or it could be the local office in the middle or the commercial contact in the middle. And I just need to have that conversation with that individual. And we just get on a call, it'll be a five minute conversation. Once I explain our position, they'll get it and we'll either go, we can. 

 Do this or we can't. 

 We can do it or we can't. And let's not waste everyone's time. But sometimes having to explain myself to someone in the middle who might be maybe a little bit more junior or doesn't really understand the clause we're talking about, who then has to relay it to the licensor, who then relays it to their legal. 

 There's a bit of Chinese whispers going on. 

 Yeah. And then I get the answer back and I'm like, no, they didn't understand what the question was. So that can be frustrating. But look, by and large, they add a lot of value. I will say I think it's handy having, when it's an international license or having someone here, an agent in the middle, or a local office in our own time zone is really good for the product approval and the marketing approval process because we get turnaround much quickly. We don't have to wait overnight till they've even seen it. 

 Do you find that licensing agents have more time for you than licensors or. 

 Not necessarily, no, I think they're both. We have great relationships with all of them and they all add like, they're all great, you know, they're great people, which is good. And I find that they all do a really good job of keeping us informed about what's coming up. You know, they're all available. Yeah, no, they're good. Yeah, we're very lucky. I mean maybe that's just everybody's experience, but I feel like, you know, we have great licensors. 

 Well, I think the licensing community in general, one of the reasons why I've been in the industry as long as I have is just because of the people. Yeah. Like whenever I go to Licensing Expo or bl I'm like, oh my gosh. It's just a nice reminder of how wonderful everybody is. A very talented industry, everyone's very nice and you know, great business people. So I find that, that makes things a lot easier and I think particularly the case here in Australia. Yeah, you know I, I spent quite a lot of my licensing career here in Australia working at Haven and working at Warner Brothers and I think the Australian licensing community is this really tight knit group that respects each other and everyone's really wonderful to work with and do you work? 

 So much fun, isn't it? That's the best job in the world. 

 It really is. 

 I like, I literally, I say this all the time to people here. I say I have the best job, the best company ever. Yeah, I really do. 

 Yeah. Yeah, you've totally, you got the dream job at the dream company. Yeah. When do you ever deal with licenses outside of Australia? Are there any licenses that exist? 

 Yes, yes, we did, we did BT21 license earlier this year. They're based in Korea. We have a number of license wars. We deal with based in Japan and then the various licensing agents, you know, elsewhere. We're squishmallows. We deal with out of UK office and us for marketing. So yeah, we, it's all mixed. 

 So BT10, BT21 is K pop and so that's like a big trend right now. Did you guys do anything around K Pop Demon Hunters? 

 No, it's on my radar. I'm a little bit, I'm unsure whether it's too young for us. 

 Okay. 

 But I love like I'm so excited about the, the crossing over to mainstream of Asian pop culture in general. Like you know, anime and Japanese kawaii and you know, it's becoming very mainstream and K Pop, all things K, you know, K drama, K Pop, K beauty. It's, it's really exciting. I think that's going to open doors for licensing here with all new. Yeah, I'm really excited by it. 

 So something like that, like how do you keep your fingers on the pulse? But something like K Pop where maybe you're not having your local contacts here coming to you and saying, you know, this is going to be big. Like, how do you know what's coming? 

 It's always on Instagram, always on TikTok, Google, searching Google Trends, reading all the licensing publications, staying close to all the licensors. So yeah, keeping finger on the pulse of all things pop culture as best I can. I watch a lot of streaming services and TV and stuff. I'm also a reality TV tragic. 

 So what time. What's your favorite reality TV show? 

 Oh, I do like a bit of Real Housewives. 

 Okay. 

 There's a number of the franchises I. 

 Follow there, some of the US ones. Is there any? Do you have a favorite? 

 I'd say Beverly Hills. 

 The best. Yeah. 

 And I love it because I really like seeing how really rich people live. 

 Yeah, yeah. 

 Like Real Housewives in New York City. You can't really tell as much because they all live in apartments. 

 Beverly Hills, they have enormous houses, $60. 

 Million mansions, drive everywhere in limousines and stuff. And it's. 

 Yeah, yeah. Are you into any the like Australian Survivor or anything like that? 

 I watch a block. 

 Okay. 

 But that's about it for Aussie. I'm more about the how rich people live. 

 About how rich people live. 

 Below deck's good? 

 Oh yeah, very good. Is there any license that you secured that was just an enormous success and you weren't expecting it? 

 I mean we don't launch anything that we're not expecting or hoping to do well. But I would say Naruto was that one. And I know anime is mainstream, but it's a very different customer to us. Our core customer is sort of female, probably like 20 to 45, maybe 20 to 35. Naruto is very much male, skewed and young, sort of Gen Alpha, Gen Z. So what? But the reason I thought it was would do well is apart from I know it's, you know, one of the most popular animes, we've been getting a lot of searches on our websites for Naruto related search terms. And so I've noticed I pull these reports occasionally and I check what people are looking for from us. 

 And even though it's not the be all and end all of, you know, data source, it's a data point that's really valuable because they're searching unprompted and showing us this is what we're looking for. So I was like, okay, I need to look into this Naruto thing. And so we launched it and I thought it would do well. But my fear was that we wouldn't find the customer. I thought if we can find the customer, if we can tap into those communities of superfans through our marketing, we're made like we've nailed it. But if we miss it and somehow our normal digital marketing or you know, social media misses them, you know, it could be a risk. And it's also, it was also an extra risky license because we couldn't get all territories one contract. 

 So three different contracts with three times work with three different MGs, which makes it more expensive. 

 Yes. 

 The MGs are then localized to that. 

 Region and higher risk, you have to offset every mg. Yeah. 

 And if you overpower one region, it can't offset underperforming another region. So it's kind of like, you know, but safe to say we found that audience and it's just been phenomenal. Like phenomenal. It is such a great property and the best thing is that it just keeps selling really strongly all the time. 

 Wow. 

 So yeah, it's been really good and that's given us confidence to come back and do more anime. We've got another one launching in a couple of weeks. 

 Very good. Anime is so hot right now. It's interesting because when you talk about analyzing search terms on your website and maybe, you know, if anyone goes on to Google, they say the UDI X like Naruto for example, that kind of data point and social listening generally looking what's happening on TikTok and Instagram came up in a conversation I had with Funko for the podcast earlier a few months ago with the head of licensing there and. And she has a very similar strategy where she's trying to collect a lot of data from all different types from Google searches to TikTok trends to what's happening on Instagram, happening on Facebook, like happening on their website, what people are emailing them about and saying hey, we really want to have a Funko pop with this particular ip. 

 Yeah. 

 Do you find that people, fanatics or the enthusiasts are coming to you and saying hey, you need to do this particular ip. 

 Oh my gosh, they love to tell us what they want. 

 Yes. Which is oh my gosh, I love it so much. 

 So we've so on our socials, whenever we launch any license, people have no qualms about coming forward and saying when are we going to get such and such. The other thing we have is that we've launched a section on our website called the License Shop where all our licenses. Don't you love it? I'VE only done that recently, all these years to kind of go, oh, that's what we should do. So good. And at the bottom of that page we've got a what do you want to see from us next? Form. 

 Oh, that's great. 

 So we're getting data direct from people looking for license from us telling us what else they want. 

 I wonder if any of the licensors that are trying to sell you just send their family and friends who go in and since they fill out that. 

 Form with their definitely, there's either a little bit of that or super fans because we'll get, you know, the same thing mentioned. Demon Slayer, Demon Slayer, Demon Slayer, like in a row. 

 And you're going selling it Netflix within. 

 Two seconds of each other and going, yeah, okay, I think this is. 

 Someone's trying to do that through my data. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

 So, yeah, so that's another data point. And we also have, you know, the great thing about license is everybody's into something for everyone. So we have, you know, a team of, you know, everybody that Woody loves license and they've all got different opinions. So often, you know, staff will suggest things and if we have someone who's like, you know, a crazy Naruto fan, we'll be talking to them about which character do you want to see next? Or if there's, you know, mad Pokemon fan, they'll be telling us, well, this one's actually really good but you know, this one's more popular for these reasons. So there's lots and lots of data points and everybody loves to, you know, give suggestions and sometimes it might be something that, you know, it wasn't on my radar. 

 You have a lot of great designs here that are non licensed. So you have licensed and you have non licensed. 

 Yeah. 

 Do you know, off the top of your head kind of like what the ratio is? Is it like 50% license, 50% generic or actual product? 

 Yeah, I think there'd be a lot more classic designs. License, we try and we tend to keep tight. So when we do a license collection, we might do an audio sleep Tina Blank or an audio robe and a sleek chair. Might do like three or four SKUs. The recent Harry Potter launch, we've done a lot more because we've got history with Harry Potter and we know, you know, there's going to be big and we're backing big for Christmas. But yeah, typically we have a lot more classic designs, non licensed designs because we'll do a pyjama Range and do you know, like a dozen different designs, tops, bottoms, long, short. 

 You know, if you have like a generic woody and a licensed woody, would the license one outsell the generic? 

 Typically it's not apples and apples. Yeah, it depends which on the design. Depends which classic and which license. 

 Because your avocado one was that the first avocado was. 

 I'm not sure if this is the very first, but it was. It's definitely like the most woody. Woody design. 

 Yeah. 

 And stepping our most famous. So that's kind of, you know. And it sold consistently well forever. 

 Interesting. 

 Yeah. So yeah, it's impossible, you know, I mean if we took our best selling license, our best selling classic, they've probably been around for different lengths of time as well. So it's an impossible comparison. 

 Do you, do you sell your licensed products at a premium compared to generic to absorb the royalty? 

 We do, we do. 

 And do you find that customers are generally happy to pay more for a licensed product? 

 Generally, yeah. I mean we will try to maintain that price point because generally, you know, if you need it and you want, if you must have it, you'll pay what it takes and it does offset, you know, the additional costs. And often with license we do additional product features that cost us more to produce as well. So we might do special packaging or we might do, you know, a product feature that elevates the product. And again, it's about trying to differentiate ourselves from those other woody style products that might use the same license so that all costs extra as well. 

 So looking ahead as it relates to the woody and licensing, are there any kind of trends that you're focused on? Anime we've already touched on. Is there anything else that's coming through that you're looking at that you're thinking, well this could be something pretty big. 

 I mean I'm really excited about, you know, K Pop and all things Korean and Japanese and looking forward to those. It's becoming even more mainstream. But I'm also, I'm really excited by there's a lot more cross IP collaborations, you know, hello Kitty and Care Bears and you know, sport working with classic characters like Sonic and the Olympics and my hero academia and mba. So I think with more and licensors seem to be willing to have a bit more fun and sort of loosen the reins a little bit and be a bit more creative and do some fun things with other brands instead of being like really tight and protective. 

 So I'm excited by all that and I would love to find an opportunity for us to do something Unique and bespoke and, you know, exclusive to us that somehow triangulates a couple of amazing licenses. I don't know what that is, but I would. 

 Yeah, I mean, I've seen those collaborations there. It's kind of the last couple of years have really sort of come to the surface and Care Bears are doing that in a really amazing way where they've, you know, they've done a partnership with Wicked, they've done a partnership with hello Kitty. So have you worked with Care Bears and hello Kitty with that kind of like joint style guide? No, no, no. That's certainly something I think would be on the cars in the future because you're really getting the benefit of two amazing brands combined, which is really exciting. 

 Well, I would love that, but I would love more one that's bespoke to us. 

 Yes. That's just for you guys. 

 Or working with a brand that, you know, that's not necessarily an IP brand, but a brand that is really closely aligned to us and our product and our DNA. 

 I have one more question for you. It's probably going to be the hardest question. 

 Oh, no. 

 What is your favorite hoodie? What is the one that you wear all the time at home? 

 It's not a hard question because when I said before, you've got to take your own personal preference out of. It took me four years before I introduced this license because I didn't want to sway my personal preferences. But Miffy. 

 Oh, you've got. 

 I'm a massive Miffy fan. 

 Yes. 

 And when I met, you know, when they say, you know, beware of meeting your heroes because you might be disappointed. You know, I've been a lifelong Miffy fan. And when I went to Met the MD of Miffy Company at Licensing Expo and I fangirled all over. 

 I bet you did. 

 It's embarrassing. 

 Yes. 

 But at the end of the meeting, she reached across the table and she gave me. She passed a Miffy limited edition Miffy pin. Said, I know you're. I can tell you're a true fan and I know you're going to look after it for us. And so I. That was like, oh, my God, this is the best thing ever. And I made her a promise that day that we'll look after Miffy. I promise you, it's going to beautiful. It's going to be amazing. And it was. And the product team did an incredible job. So everybody in the business delivered this incredible campaign. Beautiful product, sold really well. And, you know, we just, you know, just like makes my heart sing. So yeah, Miffy's my favorite, but it is a bit like asking who your favorite child is. 

 Yes, I do have one paper True. So Miffy is your favorite. Well that's good to know. Well, thanks so much for the chat. It's been really interesting. I'm going to be having a chat with Davey in a few weeks time as well, which will be really focused on what happened, how he managed to get his first license and things like that. But I've really enjoyed speaking with you and the insight has been really good. And as a big audio fan, I'm just so excited to be here. 

 So thank you so much. Thanks for the time. 

 I hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Born to License podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe. And if you're eager to learn more about licensing, I encourage you. Take a look at my course Learn to License. I've condensed almost 20 years of learning in my licensing career to help others understand how licensing works. And as a reward for sticking around, here is a discount code for you to put in. I hope to see you there.